Torque - let's talk about it...

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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I'm sure I'm not the only analog afficionado who believes it's important, vital even, to great vinyl sound.
I realise it's all in the execution, and there are amazing low torque/high mass belt drive tt's that are truly amazing (DDK's American Sound, eg).
So I absolutely don't want this thread to sound like low torque designs bashing.
It's just that all the high torque tt's I've heard in the last 5 years, incl the tt I own, seem to have an added energy/vividness/vivaciousness to the presentation, that I couldn't imagine going back to the more standard lower torque/high mass designs I could have stuck with.
The issue seems to be most people are happpy to settle on any speed technology that gets to the requisite speed and is accurate. Nothing wrong w/that. But i really think there is added value in getting to that speed, and driving that platter on and on, w/overengineered torque and vibration management.
The modded 301's, SP10's, and my Salvation, are totally mesmerizing.
Now, it seems there are a bunch of high torque designs coming onto the market, where high torque is part of the design process, the previous mechanical drawbacks of noise/rumble are being successfully addressed, and the unavowed benefits of high torque are fully positive.
In the belt drive camp, the Kuzma Stabi M, and XL4/XL DC.
In the direct drive camp, the GP Monaco 2.0, and Kodo the Beat
In the idler wheel camp, the Schick 14, Reed Muse 3C and Saskia 2 Ref
In direct rim drive camp, my Trans Fi Salvation, and TT Weights.

Thoughts, everyone?...
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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Agreement from me here.

My Pioneer Exclusive P3 gets to full speed in less time it takes me to put my finger on the tonearm to cue the next track on the table.

Impressive stuff and totally addictive. Luckily the sound is also fast, tight, clean and continuous.
 

robbyd

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Dec 23, 2015
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My guess is 'high torque' would be more of an advantage in direct/idler/rim drives. Necessary on a high mass belt drive? - wouldn't it be like a slipping clutch on a car?
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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I tend to agree with that; a massive platter should obviate the need for high torque -- BUT a heavy platter may require high torque to control the speed if there is some sort of servo circuit. I suspect speed variations, short and long term (wow and flutter as well as drift/long-term stability), cause more issues than we think. As well as things like slight mass imbalance in the platter/pad, out of round records, warps, airborne and structural vibrations, etc. that may swamp motor torque issues. Don't really know, however; my TT is very old but has a heavy platter. It sounded much better than my previous inexpensive TT's but these days high mass seems to be popular.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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In the case of the GPA Monaco the platter is being directly controlled, with the cartridge in the groove, so what order of magnitude in fluctuations of drag are we discussing ,vanishingly small I suspect.
Keith.

That certainly makes sense, Keith.
 

spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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OK Keith, I have NO argument w/this.
So, why do you suspect Alvin has gone for significantly higher torque?
The 2.0 up to speed in two revs, the original 1.0 taking several seconds more.
 

Audiophile Bill

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Mar 23, 2015
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OK Keith, I have NO argument w/this.
So, why do you suspect Alvin has gone for significantly higher torque?
The 2.0 up to speed in two revs, the original 1.0 taking several seconds more.

Maybe the additional torque corrects any speed drift faster thus leading to even more speed stability.
 

spiritofmusic

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I don't know what you are torqing about:D

Of course you don't Justin, you've settled for lowly digital over superior analog.
 

jfrech

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Sep 3, 2012
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OK Keith, I have NO argument w/this.
So, why do you suspect Alvin has gone for significantly higher torque?
The 2.0 up to speed in two revs, the original 1.0 taking several seconds more.

My 1.0 takes 2 revs to lock at 33 1/3...it's pretty snappy. Not as snappy as a Technics...
 

jfrech

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spiritofmusic

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Jun 13, 2013
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My 1.0 takes 2 revs to lock at 33 1/3...it's pretty snappy. Not as snappy as a Technics...

Maybe I'm mistaken about the 2.0 having higher torque than the 1.0 and 1.5 and getting the lp up to speed more quickly. I was always under the impression the 1.0 took several seconds to get to speed, like some of our low torque/massy platter friends.
 

Zero000

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Jul 28, 2014
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Of course you don't Justin, you've settled for lowly digital over superior analog.

Now I really don't know what you are torqing about...:)

I heard though, that in the years before Christ when such machines were in common use, as long as there was sufficient inertia and/or torque to stop speed variance on highly modulated grooves, the job was done.

Things get distorted with the passage of time, though - or is that distortion just inherent in the medium anyway...:)
 

TBone

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Nov 15, 2012
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Maybe the additional torque corrects any speed drift faster thus leading to even more speed stability.

more & more, even more, yet never perfect. The stylus encounters higher modulation, greater friction, greater drag momentarily slows down the platter, the degree of drag offset by the application of mass/inertia and torque. If you add mass, the added inertia helps minimize the onset of drag, but unfortunately, once the platter slows down, even momentarily, to any degree, its engine will attempt to compensate, further burdened by having to move that additional mass -instantaneously- back up to speed. Apply greater torque, you risk adding much potential noise. To further complicate matters, the entire chain of events is variable and in real time; the turntable invariably must compensate as a reactive device ...
 

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Apr 25, 2010
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as for no torque, I once visited an audiophile friend that every time he wants to spin some vinyl, he has to "help" the platter get started. That's a non starter as far as I'm concerned!
 

DonH50

Member Sponsor & WBF Technical Expert
Jun 22, 2010
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Except for the TT of Bruce's friend, I strongly suspect the problem is unrelated to stylus drag. Unbalanced (even slightly) platters, motor cogging, and so forth were the main culprits in the past (worn idler wheels and belts also contributed). Records not perfectly centered have been an issue on and off, maybe a non-issue these days with improved manufacturing. I have done measurements but barely remember them and certainly couldn't provide any data so consider this IMO. Servo (speed control) design must be done very carefully to prevent adding to the problem... You really want the loop operating outside the audio bandwidth if possible, and of course ringing in the loop can lead to audible issues.

Insert usual disclaimers here - Don
 

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