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Thread: Shunyata DENALI

  1. #281
    Addicted to Best! Bobvin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    I would still try plugging your amps into the HC outlets of the 6000T. I too have dedicated 20 amp lines for my amps but they seem to sound better through the Denali.
    But for the fact it would require a new, longer power cable, I would try. My new room setup has the gear on the side, amp between the speakers. Sigma analog on the Ref75 into the wall.
    óBob Vineyard, aka bobvin

    My system: Benz LPS, Einstein Turntables' Choice phono-pre (dual mono version), Audio Research DAC8, Audio Research Ref10 pre, Audio Research Ref75 amp w.KT150 tubes, Wilson Alexia speakers. Transparent Ref MM2 & Gen5 signal cables, Shunyata Zitron Sigma, AlphaNR, Python, Anaconda, Cobra power cables. Shunyata Hydra Triton v3. Stillpoints. HRS. Acoustic environment optimized by Dr. Bonnie Schnitta of SoundSense.


  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by CGabriel View Post
    I am not sure how you are interpreting what I had said, but there is no contradiction in either post. Essentially, both posts say the same thing - you cannot isolate any single performance paramter to the exclusion of another.

    How about you feedback to me what you think I said? Then, we can clear up any misunderstanding.

    You might also consider calling our customer service line so that you can have a live dialog about your questions.
    Of course you can isolate a single performance parameter. It's the same in cars. You can measure the weight, HP, torque, etc. We agree that a single performance parameter does not determine the final performance.

    In your previous quote, you seemed to imply that while the Denali has greater noise reduction/CCI, the Triton v2/Typhon had greater DTCD, meaning there was not a clear cut choice between the components. These following quotes from Grant seem to support that:

    Quote Originally Posted by GrantS View Post
    Hi Jerry,

    I hesitate to make any proclamations. We are ok letting time and the market decide the Denali range's value and performance. We have measured and beta-tested these products thoroughly, however as with any product, the true measure of its worth comes from its performance in the field within a variety of systems.

    Denali's are a distillation of the best technologies within the Triton and Typhon. They also possess the new filter technology finding its way into hospitals and electrophysiology labs across the country. In terms of measurement, they are the quietest products we have ever produced, but there is much more to performance than a noise measurement. Triton v2 and Typhon will remain as our reference products. As usual, Caelin designs with the purpose of lowering price and pushing performance. This has always been our competitive edge in a crowded marketplace; lower-retail pricing, explainable science and cost to performance value.....

    Best regards,

    Grant
    Quote Originally Posted by GrantS View Post
    It's true that there may be people that listen differently and some may not favor timing and dynamics over noise-reduction. PS-Audio built a large market on a noise-reduction-first principle, but with added heat, chassis noise and reduced peak-current once a load is applied, we feel our passive route is the better choice. Caelin and I got totgether 17 years ago because we listen the same way, for timing dynamics and the natural flow of music first. Our products ability to effect noise-reduction is at an elite level, but we have a clear design point of view than is different than the majority of companies. I've collected feedback from customers for many years, so I base our suggestions on that feedback. If you improve micro-to-macro dynamics, that really does affect noise reduction in a positive way as well.....
    I have asked roughly the same question twice, to which you have gone on tangents about your products and technical definitions that I was already aware of.

    If you want to make things simple, you can just verify my statement above your last reply, or explain what is incorrect. You can continue to dance around the questions, but you would just indirectly verify my postulate.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Sa-dono View Post
    Of course you can isolate a single performance parameter. It's the same in cars. You can measure the weight, HP, torque, etc. We agree that a single performance parameter does not determine the final performance.

    In your previous quote, you seemed to imply that while the Denali has greater noise reduction/CCI, the Triton v2/Typhon had greater DTCD, meaning there was not a clear cut choice between the components. These following quotes from Grant seem to support that:

    I have asked roughly the same question twice, to which you have gone on tangents about your products and technical definitions that I was already aware of.

    If you want to make things simple, you can just verify my statement above your last reply, or explain what is incorrect. You can continue to dance around the questions, but you would just indirectly verify my postulate.
    Nobody is dancing around anything. And further, I don't understand your confrontational tone.

    Your question was about which product had greater or lesser DTCD capabilities, which I already answered. If you want to continue the conversation - drop the attitude. And then, simply ask a follow up question since I quite frankly don't know what you are trying to learn or understand.

    You seem to have several basic misunderstandings about the products. For instance, a Typhon has no effect on DTCD since it does not conduct power line current. It is a noise reduction mate to the Triton. Therefore, DTCD is an irrelevant concept in relation to it specifically.

    Next, in the Triton all the outlets are equivalent. There are no application specific outlets for either source components or high current components. The Denali by contrast does have outlets dedicated for source components and outlets dedicated to high current devices. The DTCD capabilities of the HC outlets in the Denali are roughly equivalent to those in the Triton. The Zone 1 & Zone 2 outlets in the Denali have less DTCD than the HC outlets since they have series filters for higher levels of CCI noise reduction. That being said, the Z1 and Z2 outlets in the Denali are still capable of over 15 Amps of continuous current delivery.
    Caelin Gabriel
    President
    Shunyata Research

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by CGabriel View Post
    Nobody is dancing around anything. And further, I don't understand your confrontational tone.

    Your question was about which product had greater or lesser DTCD capabilities, which I already answered. If you want to continue the conversation - drop the attitude. And then, simply ask a follow up question since I quite frankly don't know what you are trying to learn or understand.

    You seem to have several basic misunderstandings about the products. For instance, a Typhon has no effect on DTCD since it does not conduct power line current. It is a noise reduction mate to the Triton. Therefore, DTCD is an irrelevant concept in relation to it specifically.

    Next, in the Triton all the outlets are equivalent. There are no application specific outlets for either source components or high current components. The Denali by contrast does have outlets dedicated for source components and outlets dedicated to high current devices. The DTCD capabilities of the HC outlets in the Denali are roughly equivalent to those in the Triton. The Zone 1 & Zone 2 outlets in the Denali have less DTCD than the HC outlets since they have series filters for higher levels of CCI noise reduction. That being said, the Z1 and Z2 outlets in the Denali are still capable of over 15 Amps of continuous current delivery.
    I am not trying to appear confrontational. The fact still remains that you have not answered my original question:

    Does the Triton v2 offer greater DTCD/instantaneous current delivery than the Triton v3?

    This is a yes or no question. The possible answers are:

    1) Yes, the Triton v2 offers greater DTCD than the Triton v3.
    2) No, the Triton v3 offers greater DTCD than the Triton v2.

    You have said the difference is "marginal", and that is fine when added as an addendum or explanation. It just doesn't answer the very simple question.

    You seem to have several basic misunderstandings about the products. For instance, a Typhon has no effect on DTCD since it does not conduct power line current. It is a noise reduction mate to the Triton. Therefore, DTCD is an irrelevant concept in relation to it specifically.
    I fully understand this. You and/or Grant have recommended using the Typhon on the wall outlet to the amps for ultra systems. In this case, the gear/amps would receive the greatest instantaneous current delivery possible.

    Next, in the Triton all the outlets are equivalent. There are no application specific outlets for either source components or high current components.
    I never claimed otherwise.

    The Denali by contrast does have outlets dedicated for source components and outlets dedicated to high current devices. The DTCD capabilities of the HC outlets in the Denali are roughly equivalent to those in the Triton. The Zone 1 & Zone 2 outlets in the Denali have less DTCD than the HC outlets since they have series filters for higher levels of CCI noise reduction.
    Do the Denali HC outlets provide greater DTCD than the Triton? I understand they are "roughly equivalent."

    If the answer is no, this doesn't make logical sense. If the Denali Zone 1/2 outlets "have less DTCD than the HC outlets since they have series filters for higher levels of CCI noise reduction," how does the Triton v3 provide greater DTCD than the Denali HC outlets when using similar CCI medical filters? Similar could be said about the Triton v2's use of CCI filters. Is it the wire or larger CCI medical filters?

    This also doesn't follow Audiostream's Steven Plaskin's findings. "The Power Amplifier Challenge
    I have used numerous brands of power conditioners with my power amps and have never been satisfied with the sonic results. Some elements of the sound improved, but the over-all sound always seemed less dynamic and alive sounding leading me to connect the amps directly to the wall outlets. It just always sounded best connecting my high power amps directly to the wall.

    I connected my 2 Ayre Acoustics MX-R Twenty amps to the Denali D6000/T. The result was astonishing in terms of the sonic improvements I was hearing.

    "The 2000T is a Typhon for amps. If you just want to condition your amps, get the 2000T."
    http://www.audiostream.com/content/s...ku2bFjod0Bgc.9

  5. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sa-dono View Post
    I am not trying to appear confrontational. The fact still remains that you have not answered my original question:

    Does the Triton v2 offer greater DTCD/instantaneous current delivery than the Triton v3?

    This is a yes or no question. The possible answers are:

    1) Yes, the Triton v2 offers greater DTCD than the Triton v3.
    2) No, the Triton v3 offers greater DTCD than the Triton v2.

    You have said the difference is "marginal", and that is fine when added as an addendum or explanation. It just doesn't answer the very simple question.



    I fully understand this. You and/or Grant have recommended using the Typhon on the wall outlet to the amps for ultra systems. In this case, the gear/amps would receive the greatest instantaneous current delivery possible.



    I never claimed otherwise.



    Do the Denali HC outlets provide greater DTCD than the Triton? I understand they are "roughly equivalent."

    If the answer is no, this doesn't make logical sense. If the Denali Zone 1/2 outlets "have less DTCD than the HC outlets since they have series filters for higher levels of CCI noise reduction," how does the Triton v3 provide greater DTCD than the Denali HC outlets when using similar CCI medical filters? Similar could be said about the Triton v2's use of CCI filters. Is it the wire or larger CCI medical filters?

    This also doesn't follow Audiostream's Steven Plaskin's findings. "The Power Amplifier Challenge
    I have used numerous brands of power conditioners with my power amps and have never been satisfied with the sonic results. Some elements of the sound improved, but the over-all sound always seemed less dynamic and alive sounding leading me to connect the amps directly to the wall outlets. It just always sounded best connecting my high power amps directly to the wall.

    I connected my 2 Ayre Acoustics MX-R Twenty amps to the Denali D6000/T. The result was astonishing in terms of the sonic improvements I was hearing.

    "The 2000T is a Typhon for amps. If you just want to condition your amps, get the 2000T."
    http://www.audiostream.com/content/s...ku2bFjod0Bgc.9
    This is getting somewhat complicated because of all the excerpting and pursuit. For more detailed information requests, it would be easier to answer these as simply stated questions in an e-mail or a phone call, but I'll try to get to each of your questions. If its still not clear, please e-mail or call me. I'm traveling currently but will be back by mid-week.

    1. The simple answer is no, The Triton v2 does not offer greater (measured) DTCD than the Triton v3 or vice-versa. However, when there is superior noise removal through entirely passive means, the system as a whole and especially amps can be perceived to play louder with less compression, giving the impression of greater power-handling, greater dynamics, more three-dimensionality and improved transient attack/bass-weight

    Customers who own and use Typhons with amps, or who upgraded from the Triton v2 to the v3 all swear there is a dramatic improvement in these areas. Although the DTCD Analyzer measurement may not capture the measured improvement, the anecdotal evidence is quite overwhelming that the Tv3, Typhon, Denali 6000 HC outlets and 2000T all make amps and systems sound more dynamic, powerful and loud without timing loss, hardness or other artifice. This is because the noise-isolation is relieving perceived compression (noise around the leading edge of transients) in sound--without slowing phase/timing accuracy.

    The CCI (component-to-component interference filters) designation covers two different types of filtration in the Denali, for example. There are two levels of CCI filters in the zone-1 and zone-2 outlets of the Denali 6000 models. The first level are simpler, in-series filters that have been updated and improved from the Triton v2. These new filters are in the Triton v3 and the Denali 6000 models. These first-stage filters have zero-effect on DTCD. There is a second-stage of CCI isolation in the Denali 6000 models, represented by more robust filters Caelin specifically designed for the medical imaging and scientific industries. These CCI filters sit behind zone-1 and zone 2 in the 6000 models -- only.

    These second-stage medical-design filters are not in the Tv3. The Denali zone-1 and zone-2 stage-two filters offer massive noise-isolation for digital or analog sources. Due to their design, the zone-1 and zone-2 outlets are 15A rated rather than 20A rated. They are not quite as efficient with DTCD as the first level of filters alone, but still deliver more than adequate DTCD for all sources and pre-amps. The key upgrade and difference in Triton v3 is a _massive_ version of the QR/BB technology that is in a smaller form in the Denali 2000T and in the Denali 6000 models. This massive QR/BB module is what makes the Tv3 more expensive than the v2 and in terms of performance, represents a massive upgrade over the v2, as well as an upgrade over the Denali models.

    If you'd like even more specific information, I think it'd be best to either e-mail me or call us and someone will get back to you.

    Best regards,

    Grant
    Grant Samuelsen
    Director, Marketing and Sales
    Shunyata Research

  6. #286
    Member JimmyS's Avatar
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    My 6000T arrived just before lunch. Decided music was way more important vs Food (my headache reminded me I was incorrect here) and torn down the system to insert the 6000T.

    I have a Sigma HC feeding the 6000T, the Pass XA100.5's plugged into the HC outlet, the Ref 2SE and XP-20 sharing an outlet pair, and the dCS Rossini and SACD player sharing the other outlet pair. Right out of the box, I gotta just say WOW. I'll reserve comment till there are some hours on everything, but so far I'm not disappointed.

  7. #287
    VIP/Donor [VIP/Donor] microstrip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyS View Post
    My 6000T arrived just before lunch. Decided music was way more important vs Food (my headache reminded me I was incorrect here) and torn down the system to insert the 6000T.

    I have a Sigma HC feeding the 6000T, the Pass XA100.5's plugged into the HC outlet, the Ref 2SE and XP-20 sharing an outlet pair, and the dCS Rossini and SACD player sharing the other outlet pair. Right out of the box, I gotta just say WOW. I'll reserve comment till there are some hours on everything, but so far I'm not disappointed.
    Congratulations - I have now ordered a similar system, but as I need many power cables, for the moment I ordered one Alpha EF for the 6000T and all else Alpha NR.
    Under construction around a pair of Wilson XLF's and a DCS Vivaldi 2.0 stack : conrad Johnson GAT, Lamm M1.2, TA OPUS MM2 +TA XL digital, TA XL gen V power cables ...

  8. #288
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    What would the major difference be between a Hydra Cyclops and a two outlet Denali? I'd be plugging two Kii 3vspeakers into the unit.
    Preamps: ADA Reference (multichannel); VTL 7.5 II (two channel)
    Digital: MSB Transport+ Platinum V DAC. Core Audio + MicroRendu streaming; Roon+HQP+FabFilter/Acourate; Trinnov (multichannel)
    Speakers: PRO Audio Technology 2115sm across fronts; 4x 18" PRO subs; 11.4 overall
    Room: Design by Dennis Erskine and Keith Yates. Extensive use of RPG custom bass traps
    Power: Richard Gray 20A UPS and isolation transformer. Triton/Typhon and Sound Application. Shunyata Sigma

  9. #289
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! BlueFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post
    What would the major difference be between a Hydra Cyclops and a two outlet Denali? I'd be plugging two Kii 3vspeakers into the unit.
    Good question, and let's include the Cyclops v2.
    Bud

    Lumin S1
    Sony XA-5400ES SACD
    Pass XP-20 pre, X600.5 amps
    Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes

    Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
    Shunyata Z Anaconda XLR analog ICs, Z Anaconda speaker cables
    Revelation Audio Passage Cryo-Silver Reference DB-25 umbilical power cable
    Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables

    Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
    Three 20 amp circuits.

  10. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Brucemck2 View Post
    What would the major difference be between a Hydra Cyclops and a two outlet Denali? I'd be plugging two Kii 3vspeakers into the unit.
    The Cyclops uses previous generation NIC (noise isolation chamber) technology while the Denali uses the new QR/BB technology. The Denali has a more advanced, vibration isolation, chassis and footers. The Denali has the latest third generation CCI filters. The Denali has the Cable Cradle system that supports heavy power cables. The Denali benefits by the KPIP process.

    Subjective: The Denali is clearly and profoundly superior.
    Caelin Gabriel
    President
    Shunyata Research

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