Organizing your music collection

akatora

New Member
Apr 5, 2012
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Hello

I´m very curious to learn in which ways people with big FLAC-collections organize their music. What I have is 2-3 big HDD with FLAC and most of it is individual files, but some is just on big flac file and one cue file for the whole album. Can I split those files to get all the individual tracks and which program do I use.

Are there good programs where I can rename all cd´s to a naming standard? I remember that I used a program many years ago that did this and also downloaded covers to the CDs that did not have covers.

I´m on MAC. All help are welcome.

Also, do I dare to ask, since storage is very cheap these days. Is is ”better” to convert everything to wav or is it as good to keep the files in FLAC?

Many thanks
 

Rodney Gold

Member
Jan 29, 2014
983
11
18
Cape Town South Africa
try Roon.. free 14 day trial..
Flac/Wav , makes no difference sq wise .. wav is very difficult to tag.
 

beaur

Fleetwood Sound
Oct 12, 2011
460
166
950
60
Brooklyn
I am currently using a Mac with iTunes/Roon. I have about 40K songs with a mix of AIFF, FLAC, MP3 etc. I let iTunes control the ripping (there are 3rd party apps) as i have found it's best with the metadata. I can then use several add ons that scan the library and correct any issues, TuneUp is one and I can't remember the other right now. Roon also has been very good about organizing and inserting metadata in the correct places. If your computer if dedicated to playing audio the overhead used to convert files while playing isn't that bad so I would leave files alone. Some will argue that it makes a difference, I have found that any difference is small enough where I go for the ease/convenience.


Hello

I´m very curious to learn in which ways people with big FLAC-collections organize their music. What I have is 2-3 big HDD with FLAC and most of it is individual files, but some is just on big flac file and one cue file for the whole album. Can I split those files to get all the individual tracks and which program do I use.

Are there good programs where I can rename all cd´s to a naming standard? I remember that I used a program many years ago that did this and also downloaded covers to the CDs that did not have covers.

I´m on MAC. All help are welcome.

Also, do I dare to ask, since storage is very cheap these days. Is is ”better” to convert everything to wav or is it as good to keep the files in FLAC?

Many thanks
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
Splitting full tracks requires pulling them into an audio editing program, listening to it, finding the track ends, marking that segment and saving it as separate files. You would only need to do that if you want to listen to individual tracks. If you are always listening to full albums, then that is not needed. A free program for such things is Audacity and looks like there is a Mac version:http://audacityteam.org/download/mac

If you use a program like Roon, you will have to first teach it a bit about the album/tracks. Roon will initially pull it in as unknown. You can edit those tags inside Roon and give it the album name and artist. Then ask it to identify. If it is not very obscure content, it will find it for you. Other programs also do this.

It is tedious work so I do it when I have a few minutes to kill one by one. Eventually you get them all cataloged correctly.
 

dminches

Well-Known Member
Oct 22, 2011
3,453
2,838
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I use dbpoweramp for file conversion, Adobe Audition for any editing and tag & rename for metadata.
 

jasn

New Member
Apr 28, 2014
6
0
1
I personally use a CUE splitter program called Medieval Cue Splitter, but it is for PC only. I found one for MAC called Cue Splitter for MAC, but have no experience with it.

Good luck, that's a lot 'o FLAC files to split...
 

bplexico

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2011
56
3
313
XLD for the Mac can manage and split those Flacs for which you have CUE files.

Yate is also a great tool to use to help tag your music library. Free trial is available.

As noted no need to convert from FLAC to WAV.
 

katylied

Well-Known Member
Sep 7, 2011
69
0
913
Torino (Turin) - Italy
Kid3 is a good tag editor for Mac. It's free and is what I recommend it to all my Mac customers.
A good tagging scheme is of paramount importance for a music library, not sure how and if Roon can overcome all the mistakes of the internet databases.
 

Keith_W

Well-Known Member
Mar 31, 2012
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I am a classical music listener, so I do not listen to "tracks". I listen to albums ONLY. All I ask is for my playback software to respect the album structure, which I have organized into a directories and subdirectories on a spare HDD. It drives me nuts when playback software tries to be clever and impose its own structure on top of my carefully constructed directories. That's how I want it to be organized, and I won't have it any other way! The software I use is foobar.

I haven't tried Roon ... i'll do it soon.
 

katylied

Well-Known Member
Sep 7, 2011
69
0
913
Torino (Turin) - Italy
I am a classical music listener, so I do not listen to "tracks". I listen to albums ONLY. All I ask is for my playback software to respect the album structure, which I have organized into a directories and subdirectories on a spare HDD. It drives me nuts when playback software tries to be clever and impose its own structure on top of my carefully constructed directories. That's how I want it to be organized, and I won't have it any other way! The software I use is foobar.

I haven't tried Roon ... i'll do it soon.

I believe that you do not really need a "carefully constructed directories" if:
1) the metadata are complete in every aspect (artist, composer, conductor, style, period, etc...)
2) the server software you use is customizable as the one I am using (minimserver or asset upnp)
3) the player you are using can use these tags (I'm using a Linn DS)

I have customized the metadata retrieval of dBpoweramp CD ripping software in order to get as much info as possible during the CD ripping process and eventually adding the missing one manually.
Regarding the classical music, I can look at my music collection in a quite complete way I think: by composer? no problem, by style (chamber music, piano solo, etc..)? no problem, by period (romantic, baroque, medieval, ancient, etc..)? no problem, by artist (who actually play the music)? no problem, by soloist? no problem, by year of release? no problem ......
Tags are the keys to have a well sorted music library IMHO. If you are interested in more details just send me a message.
Cheers
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
14
36
Smyrna, GA
For classical, I phycially move the tracks of a single CD rip into different directories, consistent with my library organization structure.

I view it as Genre -> Composer -> Composition -> Performer

So for example I would navigate: classical -> Beethoven -> Piano Sonata Opus 111 -> performer

You could insert sub genre if yo uhave lots of classical (i.e. chamber music).

If one CD has a performer playing Beethoven Opus 111 and say a Schubert piece, I navigate to one through the Beethoven hierarchy structure and the other the Schubert. The only thing common between the two is the album cover art. This is all relatively easy to do in Jriver. In fact, you don't technically have to move files into different directories to do this. You can simply tell Jriver how to display the files. Your metadata tagging needs to be 100% correct though.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

New Member
Nov 3, 2014
394
2
0
I am a classical music listener, so I do not listen to "tracks". I listen to albums ONLY. All I ask is for my playback software to respect the album structure, which I have organized into a directories and subdirectories on a spare HDD. It drives me nuts when playback software tries to be clever and impose its own structure on top of my carefully constructed directories. That's how I want it to be organized, and I won't have it any other way! The software I use is foobar.

I haven't tried Roon ... i'll do it soon.

Keith - I have not tried Roon, and I am not likely to based on what I have read from other users about its poor handling of classical. There are other key reasons, such as its lack of support for Multichannel, critical in my predominantly Mch library.

Roon appears to be very nice and user friendly. But, its tagging scheme for classical is apparently just inadequate. Like most library packages, it is really oriented to the pop album market, at least for now.

The idea of moving album folders or parts of them around on disc into directories is also not something I care to do. It is too time consuming and too limiting, since it can only present one view, unless you redundantly copy files to other directories for more than one set of views.

Unfortunately, the very best tools I know of for classical do require something of a long learning curve, and, while not expensive, they are not free. But, they are based entirely on the internal tags, which allow multiple views of the same album without having to move or copy media files around once ripped. Maintain the tags properly, and you can view the specific works from specific albums by composer, artist, genre, etc. I think it is much simpler and less time consuming, yet much more powerful and easy to search and pick selections for play by maintaining the internal tags.

For CD-only libraries (which I do not have on my PC or use), my friends swear by MusiChi, which was designed from the ground up for classical. It comes with a huge database of tag values of compositions by composer, so that manual tagging is largely just copying from their database. This also ensures spelling consistency for the tags. My friend Andy Quint really likes it and had written an article in TAS about its use several years ago. Kal Rubinson of Stereophile also uses it for his CDs. Both have very large CD libraries. It does not support DSD or Mch, so it is not for me and my primary interests.

I myself use JRiver for my library of well over 3,000 discs, most from SACD in Mch. Andy basically adapted the JRiver tagging scheme we use based on his MusiChi experience. He also uses JRiver for Mch albums. Ripped albums just go into a big directory, each album into a folder by the album name obtained automatically from the rip, though a few older discs do not have any automatic names and require manual entry - they come up as Unknown. The album media file folder name is not critical. It just needs to be unique for each album's media files. JRiver's directory will automatically contain links to them on disc for playback.

We only needed to add one custom field to the standard JRiver tag definitions to better support classical - Composition. That must be manually maintained, since it is never provided as such by the disc authors in their standard metdata.

Other fields - artist(s), movement names, disc number, track number, # of channels, recording label, etc. - are often automatically supplied from metadata in the rip. Some fields may need editing for consistency with your overall scheme. Example: the Genre tag is usually blank or uselessly just "Classical", but the field can be maintained by you with more categories however you see fit - Symphony, Concerto, Chamber, etc. You could also add another custom tag field for Period, if you wish. We have opted not to. There is no limit in JRiver to the number of custom tags. But, the more new fields you add, the more manual tagging you must do yourself.

All JRiver manual tagging and editing is "smart" in that it presents a pull down choice of matching tags already entered to your library for that field once you type a few letters. This reduces typing, avoids misspellings and maintains tagging consistency. Album cover art is manually retrieved from the Internet, usually in seconds during the tagging process.

When the work is done - you get good and quick at it with experience - playback is a genuine pleasure. I use JRiver's JRemote app on my iPad via wifi for playback selection and control, seamlessly directing JRiver on the PC to play what I have chosen. I usually touchpad search in my Mch view, pick a composer and a genre within that, getting a list of albums within that. I pick a disc, then a composition on that disc and it plays in order.

For example, I touch my Mch Composer view, touch B, touch "Brahms, Johannes" from the choices, touch the Symphonies genre, and I am given a list of all works within that in my library. I touch one, say the 4th Symphony with Ivan Fisher and the Budapest Festival Orchestra, touch the first track and it plays the whole symphony. All this is done by touch screen using album art as the main icons. As long as I have done my tagging properly, it is actually simpler and quicker to do than to describe, as above.

I can also find things just as easily via other views, like artist, genre, stereo/Mch or all, etc. I can create all the different views I need, but I really do not need very many. Depending on the view selected, albums will be seen as all tracks together, or separately by composer, composition, genre, etc., all without disturbing, renaming, duplicating, etc. the ripped media files themselves. The tags for each track control this in straightforward, logical fashion.

Note that MusiChi and JRiver maintain industry standard IDV3 tags, and they can do so inside the media file itself. I can later choose to migrate to any other library tool that also supports this tag format, which is most. AFAIK, Foobar does not, a big strike against it. A big investment of effort in tagging via Foobar might be foolish.

JRiver is not quite all as perfect as I have described. There are some small issues, like some tags being too long for its display format. No big deal, though. My biggest gripe is that while it handles Blu-Ray, it does not easily allow tagging at the chapter level, not yet, anyway. So, my classical BD-A and BD-V albums do not yet have any tagging down to the composition or movement level. FLAC downloads, etc. are no problem though.

With classical, it is a big undertaking no matter what you decide to do. So, be careful in choosing the right tool and a good tagging scheme. Sorry to go overboard here. There is a lot to think about.
 

Keith_W

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Mar 31, 2012
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Thanks for the replies, gents. Just FYI this is a screenshot of my music folder:

Clipboard01.jpg

As you can see, each disc occupies one folder. Folders are grouped together as part of a series (in this case, the complete Gardiner Bach Cantata series). This series, along with other collections or individual discs of cantatas, are grouped under the "cantatas" folder, which comes under the main folder "BACH Johann Sebastian".

My collection of CD's is organized the same way. In this way, I can find a disc just by thinking about it.

The last time I tried to tag the tracks, I had "Bach" filed under 8 different composers - "Bach JS", "JS Bach", "BACH", "Johann S Bach", "Johann Sebastian Bach", "Bach Johann S", etc etc. The tagging software would then try to group tracks together from different discs! I don't want to listen to one movement of a Beethoven Symphony and then suddenly switch to the second movement of a Brahms Symphony! This is the kind of thing that makes classical listeners get really mad! I gave up after this.

When I ripped the discs, I used the free CDDB database to name the tracks. But I decided into which folder the ripped tracks should go. When I use foobar to play, I just point it at one directory and tell it to play everything in that directory. It works.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
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Smyrna, GA
If your folders are stuctured like you are showing, you can use the "fill properties from filename" feature in JRiver. It will populate tag based on directory structure. So everything in the Bach, Johan Sebastian stucture will get tagged the exact same way, because it creates the tag based on that folder name.
 

asiufy

Industry Expert/VIP Donor
Jul 8, 2011
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IIRC, Roon doesn't care if your tags say "Bach, J. S." or "Johann Sebastian Bach", or even just "Bach". If you tell it you want to listen to some "Bach", it'll pull ALL of that from your collection.

My opinion, but organizing everything via directory structures is extremely backwards, and just not the right tool for the job. Any proper file format has tags, very extensive ones at that, that you can use with any music player to organize your collection into playlists, folders, etc. Again, my opinion, and I do understand/respect people who's been doing the directory thing for years, and so are confortable with that... But I can't honestly see that being a) more efficient b) more pleasurable in day-to-day use


cheers,
alex
 

Keith_W

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Mar 31, 2012
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Melbourne, Australia
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No Alex, I and other classical listeners just believe in listening to music properly. I have ZERO need, and ZERO desire, to create a "playlist" comprising of randomly selected tracks. Why? Because my attention span is longer than the typical 3 minutes that listeners of other types of "music" typically have.
 

edorr

WBF Founding Member
May 10, 2010
3,139
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Smyrna, GA
Thank you, edorr! Does anyone know if Roon has a similar feature?

Don't know, but you can always use a trial version of Jriver just for tagging if you don't want to use it as your server (not sure how robust the Mac version is). Since you have flacs, it will write the tags to your files. You can than use your properly tagged files in another program, set up library display hierarchy as you want it (assuming Roon can do this) and presto.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

New Member
Nov 3, 2014
394
2
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The last time I tried to tag the tracks, I had "Bach" filed under 8 different composers - "Bach JS", "JS Bach", "BACH", "Johann S Bach", "Johann Sebastian Bach", "Bach Johann S", etc etc. The tagging software would then try to group tracks together from different discs! I don't want to listen to one movement of a Beethoven Symphony and then suddenly switch to the second movement of a Brahms Symphony! This is the kind of thing that makes classical listeners get really mad! I gave up after this.

Any scheme requires some discipline if it is to work at all, including your directory naming idea. Any decent tagging tool will make it easy to keep composer names consistently spelled the same across multiple albums in the tags. Ditto for other tag fields. But, tags need to be edited after ripping to ensure consistency. The metadata provided automatically by disc authors is sometimes very good, sometimes bad, especially for classical. It is often much better for pop, jazz, etc.

In JRiver, once I have tagged one album's composer as "Bach, Johann Sebastian", the next one by the same composer will be a snap. When I start to type "Bach" into the composer name field, I will be presented with the full name spelled exactly the same way as I did before. If I also already have some additional albums by Bach, Johann Christian, and Bach, Wilhelm Friedemann, I will be given a list of all of the names beginning with Bach. I highlight and click the correct one, and I am done with the composer field.

So, all my JS Bach will be together with exactly the same spelling for composer name, and after the first time I entered it into the composer field, the amount of typing I had to do was minimal. This is what I referred to as "smart tagging". It works exactly the same way with all other tagging fields. So, as you build your library, tagging gets easier and easier. You do more picking and clicking and less complete typing of composer names or other field values.

On playback, with my views set up properly, I am always presented with a list of albums. As I said for my most typical selection view, I pick a composer, then a genre, then I am given a list of all albums within that as icons from the cover art with album name beneath. I pick an album, click the first track I want and it starts to play from there, automatically going to the next track and the next, but only on the album I picked. There is never any scrambling of multiple albums commingled together out of sequence.

If I do not like the album icon presentation, with one click, I can choose a text list display instead. I can highlight any track and view all the tags at any time, even while a different track is playing.

I generally do not use playlists either with classical, except sometimes I browse my collection while listening to something else and set up the next selection to be played in my short playlist before the first one completes. The second one plays automatically after the first is done.
 
Last edited:

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
860
1
0
Is is ”better” to convert everything to wav or is it as good to keep the files in FLAC?

The parodox of WAV is that support for the audio part is almost universal and support for its tags a universal mess.
Tagging support is so poor a lot of people even belief you can't tag WAV at all.
Better stick to FLAC.
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/WAV_KB.htm


In the past I didn’t mind the file structure.
As one has the tags to navigate the collection why bother?

Of course one day you will notice that a track is gone.
It might be wrongly tagged or dropped from the file system.
That is the moment you appreciate keeping all tracks from a CD or download in 1 folder.
Likewise if you use tagging software like MusiCHI, one option is to load specifics folders.
Hence it is convenient to have all tracks in a folder.

I use

Root
Root\Classical
Root\Jazz
Root\Pop
Root\Blues

As I tag most of all classical different compared with the other genres, this allows me to formulate very simple filters like “list everything starting with Root\Classical”
In the past I tried the same thing with Genres but each time a new genre is entered, you have to adept the rules as well.
I also tried multiple libraries but in practice to switch between them proved to be inconvenient.

Today all of the tagging is done with the MusiCHI tagger.
It has among the usual suspects (Amazon, FreeBD) also GD3
A paid database and a decent one for tagging classical.
Much better than the very limited JRiver’s YADB .
YADB I do consider useless for tagging classical.

The MusiCHI tagger has almost any composer. For a time I made it a sport to hunt for composers not in the database. Just to pester Philippe a little. Likewise performers.
As Philippe(the guy behind MusiCHI) is very responsive, he add them all to the reference database.

The big problem is that media players and internet databases are designed with pop music in mind.
Today the situation has improved as support for the composer tag has become common.

The moment you wish to have Compositions or Opus, you have to do this yourself (custom tag).
This is where MusiCHI tagger shines.
In case of major composers, the compositions are in the reference database.
If not, you can use its functions to extract the composition from Album or Title.

First you let the Cleaner do the work.
Let is find composers, performers and compositions.
Fine tuning you do manual using the text processor.
I think that most of the time I need less than 5 minutes to have everything tagged right.
 

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