New Hybrid Single Ended Power and Stereo Amplifiers - Feedback/Poll needed

Believe High Fidelity · Dec 28, 2015

Hello WBF,

Aries Cerat is working on a new design to be released sometime in 2016 that will leverage single ended circuits married to transistors for a heavy hitting performance combination. This combination and design is intended to beat any amplifier at the same price or double in the SS or SET market. However there are some challenges with the go-to-market strategy I would like to get feedback and a consensus on if you will indulge me...

The power of this design is right around 25W class A and that presents a big challenge on two fronts:

1) Most who shop for low powered amps typically are not from the SS camp who want SS for the higher 100-200+ Watts per channel and avoid tubes for their maintenance and "microphonics"

2) Most who shop for low powered amps typically are wanting to stay away from any SS influence and leverage a SET design without finding any value of adding benefits from our friend the transistor.

So where does a low powered hybrid fit? Not in either camp, but the design is ready to prove its metal. Pass labs released the First Watt SIT1/2 to no real commercial avail for the same challenges I would imagine we are facing releasing this design.

There is an alternative topology where we can release this in a higher watt variant but that would necessitate adding double the heat sinks and would be much heavier (and more costly).

Curious to know what y'all think about this and if we should consider the higher powered model or stick with the original design and why (this is key).

All feedback is appreciated. On a side note I cannot comment on pricing for it as final designs have yet to be finished.

-Joshua

spiritofmusic · Dec 28, 2015

I would be the perfect type of customer for you, but won't offer you any advice.
I run 101dB eff Zu Definitions 4 spkrs, and have dallied w/going 107dB eff AG horns.
I currently run all-Class A 60W/ch Nat Audio Se2Se 211's SET amps.
Would seriously entertain yr product.
How much of a market share you'll appeal to, maybe pretty small.
You will struggle getting people to want to swap their SETs.
And most hybrids are in the 100-300w bracket (Ypsilon, Thrax, Lamm).

Audiophile Bill · Dec 28, 2015

Believe High Fidelity said:
Hello WBF,

Aries Cerat is working on a new design to be released sometime in 2016 that will leverage single ended circuits married to transistors for a heavy hitting performance combination. This combination and design is intended to beat any amplifier at the same price or double in the SS or SET market. However there are some challenges with the go-to-market strategy I would like to get feedback and a consensus on if you will indulge me...

The power of this design is right around 25W class A and that presents a big challenge on two fronts:

1) Most who shop for low powered amps typically are not from the SS camp who want SS for the higher 100-200+ Watts per channel and avoid tubes for their maintenance and "microphonics"

2) Most who shop for low powered amps typically are wanting to stay away from any SS influence and leverage a SET design without finding any value of adding benefits from our friend the transistor.

So where does a low powered hybrid fit? Not in either camp, but the design is ready to prove its metal. Pass labs released the First Watt SIT1/2 to no real commercial avail for the same challenges I would imagine we are facing releasing this design.

There is an alternative topology where we can release this in a higher watt variant but that would necessitate adding double the heat sinks and would be much heavier (and more costly).

Curious to know what y'all think about this and if we should consider the higher powered model or stick with the original design and why (this is key).

All feedback is appreciated. On a side note I cannot comment on pricing for it as final designs have yet to be finished.

-Joshua

Hi,

How much power would you get with the higher power variant and how stable would this be into tough / very tough loads? I can see a market for people wanting the SET sound but using their choice of speakers that are tough to drive - you will plug this gap.

I don't see the point of the low power ss route myself as it has not been successful by others that have produced it. That brigade still have a choice to go SET anyhow since they are using efficient speakers.

DaveC · Dec 28, 2015

25W is doable using a 211/845/805 SET so I don't really see the point of a hybrid at these power levels unless it's significantly less expensive vs a big SET amp, which is possible but the appeal is going to be very limited imo.

FrantzM · Dec 28, 2015

Just thinking aloud here:

Wouldn't the SS output stage provide the superb damping factor. Thus the excellent bass SET owners sacrifice (but deny they do

)
If the SET is limited to the input, the low noise of SS resulting in a very high SNR. Something SET amps are not famous for? Suddenly you have a SET-sounding unit with extremely low noise
While the SET input and driver stages ( IIRC) would provide the warmth of SET and avoiding their tendencies to distort in difficult loads?

An interesting ideas if the price is right.. Else people will retreat to their all-tube SETs.

Audiophile Bill · Dec 29, 2015

I assume you know about the Tellurium Q iridium. I don't believe that they make this any more despite promising reviews including 6 moons on your speakers!

JackD201 · Dec 29, 2015

Butler has been doing 300B input/driver and SS output stage for years. KR Audio has been doing mosfet driver, SET + OPT output for even longer. The latter is very popular in both europe and asia and has a smaller but loyal following in america as well. KR models go from flea power to 100wpc parallel or 150 wpc push pull and also introduced this year a 211 based cyclotron circuit yielding 200wpc.

My take is that there are many ways to inject DHT sound in the path but if you really want the full DHT sound and not just a taste of it, you go the DHT via output transformer route into speakers that thrive on the limited power. If all you want is a taste or do not want to give up your existing speakers then you might as well just get a DHT DAC, pre , phono pre or tube buffer and a neutral higher power amp downstream.

Believe High Fidelity · Dec 29, 2015

spazmatron said:
Don't design by committee, don't market your products as being like this or that. Make something you believe in that stands on its own two feet. If you go for middle ground and that's what you will get by doing things like this thread you end up with a product that while offends no on excites no one also.
Be bold do what's best by your beliefs.

If you can come up with a musical amp with a low noise floor that can drive most loads, grain free and is quick and has enough current reserves to give great dynamic transients but not over the top and unnatural you will be one of few. Who cares what class it is
Be bold.

As spirit says you will struggle to convince the SET guys anyway. He should know lol

Very well said, but I cannot ignore the lack of market share for hybrids that are low powered even done by the best in the industry. Business intelligence is needed as there is not an endless funding to build a market for a product no one may want for the aforementioned reasons.

Given the projected cost, it is not so much a matter of design as the design is done. I may want to postpone release to do it a different way based on real world application of such tech

Believe High Fidelity · Dec 29, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
I would be the perfect type of customer for you, but won't offer you any advice.
I run 101dB eff Zu Definitions 4 spkrs, and have dallied w/going 107dB eff AG horns.
I currently run all-Class A 60W/ch Nat Audio Se2Se 211's SET amps.
Would seriously entertain yr product.
How much of a market share you'll appeal to, maybe pretty small.
You will struggle getting people to want to swap their SETs.
And most hybrids are in the 100-300w bracket (Ypsilon, Thrax, Lamm).

Too bad as any feedback would help for the global launch. I can't sell to you anyway being a US distributor so feel free to let me know your thoughts.

Believe High Fidelity · Dec 29, 2015

Audiophile Bill said:
Hi,

How much power would you get with the higher power variant and how stable would this be into tough / very tough loads? I can see a market for people wanting the SET sound but using their choice of speakers that are tough to drive - you will plug this gap.

I don't see the point of the low power ss route myself as it has not been successful by others that have produced it. That brigade still have a choice to go SET anyhow since they are using efficient speakers.

Theoretically speaking a transistor based design like the SIT, Tellurium Q iridium or any others would offer all the benefits of tubes and none of the drawbacks while still adding a better SNR and bandwidth. However, there products have mostly failed to take hold in the low powered market.

Most well designed SET's would have little issues driving 80%+ modern speakers with the caveat being the higher watt output allowing for more choice and flexibility.

Believe High Fidelity · Dec 29, 2015

JackD201 said:
Butler has been doing 300B input/driver and SS output stage for years. KR Audio has been doing mosfet driver, SET + OPT output for even longer. The latter is very popular in both europe and asia and has a smaller but loyal following in america as well. KR models go from flea power to 100wpc parallel or 150 wpc push pull and also introduced this year a 211 based cyclotron circuit yielding 200wpc.

My take is that there are many ways to inject DHT sound in the path but if you really want the full DHT sound and not just a taste of it, you go the DHT via output transformer route into speakers that thrive on the limited power. If all you want is a taste or do not want to give up your existing speakers then you might as well just get a DHT DAC, pre , phono pre or tube buffer and a neutral higher power amp downstream.

Interesting take on this.

Audiophile Bill · Dec 29, 2015

Believe High Fidelity said:
Theoretically speaking a transistor based design like the SIT, Tellurium Q iridium or any others would offer all the benefits of tubes and none of the drawbacks while still adding a better SNR and bandwidth. However, there products have mostly failed to take hold in the low powered market.

Most well designed SET's would have little issues driving 80%+ modern speakers with the caveat being the higher watt output allowing for more choice and flexibility.

Have you done market research or plucked 80% out of thin air? I find that figure a long way too high.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 29, 2015

I think that the darTZeel NHB-108 is a design (even though all solid state) that has a 'single ended' perspective and minimal parts count, absent normal protection circuits, zero negative feedback sort of pedigree. particularly the first 'A' version. it's very low noise and I've seen it matched with horns and other very efficient speakers that covet that magical 'first watt'.

it's a tube lovers solid state amp. I moved from Tenor OTL's to the darTZeel for that reason.

now, 13 years after introduction, it's still a current product and one of the best amps out there. and Swiss built, like a tank.

DaveC · Dec 29, 2015

Audiophile Bill said:
Have you done market research or plucked 80% out of thin air? I find that figure a long way too high.

I agree, in fact just the opposite. Most modern speakers are going to show unacceptable deviations in frequency response when powered by a SET amp. Just look at the impedance curve of a typical multi way speaker vs the output impedance of a SET amp. SET amps are specialty amps that must be paired with the right speaker to work out well.

Believe High Fidelity · Dec 29, 2015

Audiophile Bill said:
Have you done market research or plucked 80% out of thin air? I find that figure a long way too high.

DaveC said:
I agree, in fact just the opposite. Most modern speakers are going to show unacceptable deviations in frequency response when powered by a SET amp. Just look at the impedance curve of a typical multi way speaker vs the output impedance of a SET amp. SET amps are specialty amps that must be paired with the right speaker to work out well.

I guess the key word to this would be "well". Most of my personal experience and that of some known industry associates that it "can drive" the modern loudspeaker and it some cases sensitivity is not an issue to get excellent sound. However, most do not do it very well even though a lot of folks use them.

80% is about right if I could run a tally of the combined information

Believe High Fidelity · Dec 29, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
I think that the darTZeel NHB-108 is a design (even though all solid state) that has a 'single ended' perspective and minimal parts count, absent normal protection circuits, zero negative feedback sort of pedigree. particularly the first 'A' version. it's very low noise and I've seen it matched with horns and other very efficient speakers that covet that magical 'first watt'.

it's a tube lovers solid state amp. I moved from Tenor OTL's to the darTZeel for that reason.

now, 13 years after introduction, it's still a current product and one of the best amps out there. and Swiss built, like a tank.

But as a reviewer it is easy to make the switch when you can hear it first hand. When you are trying to reach an audience that own low powered amps (we'll just assume all SET owners) to move to a hybrid version is where I see to much struggle than its worth. Given most guys here have really good systems it is likely going to result in a non-US launch just because of the taboo

DaveC · Dec 29, 2015

Believe High Fidelity said:
I guess the key word to this would be "well". Most of my personal experience and that of some known industry associates that it "can drive" the modern loudspeaker and it some cases sensitivity is not an issue to get excellent sound. However, most do not do it very well even though a lot of folks use them.

80% is about right if I could run a tally of the combined information

Sensitivity is not the issue, although it is if you want to achieve realistic SPLs... it's the issue with impedance and phase behavior of a typical multi-way speaker causing deviations in frequency response. I mean, if you want to buy a speaker that's been developed with very low output impedance amps in mind, and that provides a very flat frequency response when using such an amp, then put a SET amp on it and change it's performance, this is not what I'd consider an appropriate match. It's fine if YOU like the results but IMO this is nowhere close to the goal of high fidelity, it's you deciding distortion sounds better. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's your personal choice, not high fidelity.

And please don't tell me "well" designed SET amps don't have these problems, it's the nature of the beast. Sure, you can apply NFB but for most people that's the antithesis of a "well" designed SET amp.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 29, 2015

Believe High Fidelity said:
But as a reviewer it is easy to make the switch when you can hear it first hand. When you are trying to reach an audience that own low powered amps (we'll just assume all SET owners) to move to a hybrid version is where I see to much struggle than its worth. Given most guys here have really good systems it is likely going to result in a non-US launch just because of the taboo

I've never been a reviewer (and don't play one on TV either).

I do think that the marketplace likes 7-18 watt SET's for horns and other ultra efficient speakers, and then 'moderate power' 50-75 'tube watts' or 100 solid state watts for that next level of efficient speakers (around 95db 8 ohm) in smallish rooms.

25 tube-ss hybrid watts would have to be the best sounding amp out there to sell. if it was then people would find it. the web can be a king maker.

Believe High Fidelity · Dec 29, 2015

DaveC said:
Sensitivity is not the issue, although it is if you want to achieve realistic SPLs... it's the issue with impedance and phase behavior of a typical multi-way speaker causing deviations in frequency response. I mean, if you want to buy a speaker that's been developed with very low output impedance amps in mind, and that provides a very flat frequency response when using such an amp, then put a SET amp on it and change it's performance, this is not what I'd consider an appropriate match. It's fine if YOU like the results but IMO this is nowhere close to the goal of high fidelity, it's you deciding distortion sounds better. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's your personal choice, not high fidelity.

And please don't tell me "well" designed SET amps don't have these problems, it's the nature of the beast. Sure, you can apply NFB but for most people that's the antithesis of a "well" designed SET amp.

I meant that the SET amps can drive the speakers, but not very "well". Not if reference to SET designs having an impact on this.

As far as the rest goes it is not a matter of my taste vs my experience with clientele. My taste would eat up to much data on this server

Believe High Fidelity · Dec 29, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
I've never been a reviewer (and don't play one on TV either).

I do think that the marketplace likes 7-18 watt SET's for horns and other ultra efficient speakers, and then 'moderate power' 50-75 'tube watts' or 100 solid state watts for that next level of efficient speakers (around 95db 8 ohm) in smallish rooms.

25 tube-ss hybrid watts would have to be the best sounding amp out there to sell. if it was then people would find it. the web can be a king maker.

Sorry Mike confused you with another Mike (maybe someone on TV)

Why would it have to be the best sounding when it could just be the best sounding to its relative price point SS or Tube?

New Hybrid Single Ended Power and Stereo Amplifiers - Feedback/Poll needed

[Industry Expert]

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Industry Expert

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Well-Known Member

WBF Founding Member

[Industry Expert]

[Industry Expert]

[Industry Expert]

[Industry Expert]

Well-Known Member

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

Industry Expert

[Industry Expert]

[Industry Expert]

Industry Expert

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member

[Industry Expert]

[Industry Expert]

Similar threads