Shoot out: Reel to Reel Comparison to Direct Digital Recording

amirm · Dec 15, 2015

Was on Youtube searching for something and this video popped out. It is a very nice comparison of simultaneous recording of acoustic guitar to a Teak 4-track recorder at 15 ips and direct digital recording to Macbook Pro at 24/96. The tape was then captured at 24/96 for compression and encoding for Youtube. The difference is very clear and pretty interesting:

May want to click on the link itself and select HD to have the least audio compression (I did not find this necessary): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2quieLxCE0

I won't tell you my opinion yet but once people have had a chance to hear it, I will share my preference. The author also shares his at the end.

Very nice recording by the way. Give it a listen.

dallasjustice · Dec 15, 2015

It's not tough to hear the difference. I guess it comes down to preference. Some folks like a rounder sound and don't mind the tape artifacts. Others prefer the pristine clarity of digital. I would take the digital and that's not even a really high end AtoD.

Here's another one.

NorthStar · Dec 15, 2015

amirm said:
Very nice recording by the way. Give it a listen.

That was cool.

RayDunzl · Dec 16, 2015

I downloaded the audio as 128kbs m4a using KeepVid.

Observations:

What I see, looking at the waveform in Audacity...

Both recordings are of the same performance, as established by time alignining the two tracks.

Track one and Track two are in opposite phase, as established by visual observation.

Track one and Track two have the left and right channels reversed, as established by visual observation..

---

If there is a 'squarish' wave in Track one, the squarishness of it tends to roll off in Track two.

Looking at the spectrum:

Track one has energy in the 6-30Hz range that Track two lacks.

amirm · Dec 16, 2015

Giving my answer, I had clear preference for digital. I love that crisp and solid presentation that it provides. The benefits he talks about in the video from tape did not come through on my headphones. I found the channel separation reduced, noise floor increased of course and less accurate high frequency presentation and lost low frequencies.

NorthStar · Dec 16, 2015

But Amir, the guy is a musician with a good heart and set of ears. I tend to trust his judgement above all else. :b

He said that the bass is fuller (more voluptuous) from the analog recording, and that the ambiance is more present with the dust you can ear in the atmosphere, like tape hiss. :b

* I did many recordings of my own acoustic music playing in the past (guitars and flutes), on analog open-reel tape decks and on digital recording machines and raw and with various mic techniques, and untouched.
My overall findings: I prefer the analog R-2-R music recordings of my own ? playing. It has more soul. ...Definitely, no contest.

dallasjustice · Dec 16, 2015

You are correct that it is ultimately an artistic decision. So I think it's odd that an artist would even care what others think of that decision. Artists should just do their thing.

NorthStar said:
But Amir, the guy is a musician with a good heart and set of ears. I tend to trust his judgement above all else. :b

He said that the bass is fuller (more voluptuous) from the analog recording, and that the ambiance is more present with the dust you can ear in the atmosphere, like tape hiss. :b

* I did many recordings of my own acoustic music playing in the past (guitars and flutes), on analog open-reel tape decks and on digital recording machines and raw and with various mic techniques, and untouched.
My overall findings: I prefer the analog R-2-R music recordings of my own ? playing. It has more soul. ...Definitely, no contest.

NorthStar · Dec 16, 2015

dallasjustice said:
You are correct that it is ultimately an artistic decision. So I think it's odd that an artist would even care what others think of that decision. Artists should just do their thing.

And that is exactly what he said in the video; it's his opinion, and he lets people make their own. That's why I said that he has a "good heart".

* Also, I much prefer analog VU meters over boring digital bar meters. ...Just looking @ things from a "view" perspective.
But the real pudding is in the listening...@ home...from the various machines.

No doubt in my mind as to what sounds best, but today's world doesn't afford the high maintenance.
...Convenience, easy access, speed, portability, ...they all are.
It's like living in a large mansion on Malibu island and without maids. ...No way that you're going to spend time to clean the dust, and do all the gardening/cooking by yourself.

dallasjustice · Dec 16, 2015

I'm a sucker for VU meters also. My DAC has VU meters on its oled display. I love it, even if it's just a digital simulation of the real thing.

NorthStar said:
And that is exactly what he said in the video; it's his opinion, and he lets people make their own. That's why I said that he has a "good heart".

* Also, I much prefer analog VU meters over boring digital bar meters. ...Just looking @ things from a "view" perspective.
But the real pudding is in the listening...@ home...from the various machines.

No doubt in my mind as to what sounds best, but today's world doesn't afford the high maintenance.
...Convenience, easy access, speed, portability, ...they all are.
It's like living in a large mansion on Malibu island and without maids. ...No way that you're going to spend time to clean the dust, and do all the gardening/cooking by yourself.

amirm · Dec 16, 2015

I am mesmerized by the VU meters. It is the thing I loved on Hifi Gear in 1970s and cherish right now. The bigger the better

.

Al M. · Dec 16, 2015

RayDunzl said:
I downloaded the audio as 128kbs m4a using KeepVid.

Observations:

What I see, looking at the waveform in Audacity...

Both recordings are of the same performance, as established by time alignining the two tracks.

Track one and Track two are in opposite phase, as established by visual observation.

Track one and Track two have the left and right channels reversed, as established by visual observation..

---

If there is a 'squarish' wave in Track one, the squarishness of it tends to roll off in Track two.

Looking at the spectrum:

Track one has energy in the 6-30Hz range that Track two lacks.

Interesting. I am not sure what the opposite phase does to the sound.

My observations (thanks, Amir, for posting this video):

I thought recording 1 was much richer sounding, and there was more detail audible in the string vibrations. Thus, according to the general myth, it should have been the analog recording: richer and more detail. Yet it was the digital recording. I was stunned, frankly.

Great to know, since I am an all-digital guy (I don't have a turntable). On the other hand, apart from this particular comparison, I think that in many cases analog (vinyl) playback is still superior. Yet having heard the complete dCS Vivaldi 4-piece digital stack last weekend gave another perspective to the issue.

***

Disclosure: I listened directly from Youtube to the HD setting, but with $30 headphones from Radioshack. After the reveal I went back to listen again, but my impressions didn't change. By the way, I found the processed recording at the end, with reverb and compression, pretty hideous. Too rich sounding (in not a good sense) and bigger than life.

amirm · Dec 16, 2015

Wish we had the same comparison but with top of the line tape deck.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 16, 2015

amirm said:
I am mesmerized by the VU meters. It is the thing I loved on Hifi Gear in 1970s and cherish right now. The bigger the better .

VU Meters sound crappy. basically a 'meter bridge' adds noise to the signal path. but I get that appeals to those of us with the McIntosh chromozone

most custom output electronics bypass any VU Meter for a more transparent, more natural, sound. the difference is more than just ditching the VU Meter, of course. I don't use the VU meters on either of my Studers.

if you like VU Meters, visit J-Corder and knock yourself out.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 16, 2015

amirm said:
Wish we had the same comparison but with top of the line tape deck.

done it. anyone can do it since the media can be purchased. the top level gear is a bit more dear to acquire.

game, set, match to the tape.

with Reference Recordings there are a number of cases where one can have the 15ips 1/4" master dub and the 176/24 HRx file from the same mic feed.

that's the tape played on my Studer A-820/King Cello and the 176/24 file played on what is arguably the best PCM dac, the Trinity.

amirm · Dec 16, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
done it.

game, set, match to the tape.

with Reference Recordings there are a number of cases where one can have the 15ips 1/4" master dub and the 176/24 HRx file from the same mic feed.

I asked for the same comparison mike with that acoustic guitar and both outputs available for quick AB. And a path that was assured to be a simple mic feed. I don't think such a comparison exists with RR but if you give me the specifics, I will seek them out.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 16, 2015

amirm said:
I asked for the same comparison mike with that acoustic guitar and both outputs available for quick AB. And a path that was assured to be a simple mic feed. I don't think such a comparison exists with RR but if you give me the specifics, I will seek them out.

well........Prof. Johnson is pretty hard to beat in terms of recording quality both with approach and technology for both tape and digital.

so yes; you could dumb it down considerably if you wanted to from his lofty approach. but then what information are you seeking?

amirm · Dec 16, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
VU Meters sound crappy.

Not at all. My R2R deck has meters and it sounds wonderful. I am not spending hundreds of dollars on tapes and listen to crap. If you want to exaggerate the effect, please tell it to someone who doesn't have the equipment.

basically a 'meter bridge' adds noise to the signal path. but I get that appeals to those of us with the McIntosh chromozone

The Mac stuff has had no appeal to me. I like the original hifi yellow meters coming out of Japan. That is what I grew up with and associate with such gear.

if you like VU Meters, visit J-Corder and knock yourself out.

I don't need to knock myself out Mike. My Otari has these nice beautiful VU meters as I post before:

Mike Lavigne · Dec 16, 2015

I should have added a smiley face.....just kidding......

amirm · Dec 16, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
well........Prof. Johnson is pretty hard to beat in terms of recording quality both with approach and technology for both tape and digital.

so yes; you could dumb it down considerably if you wanted to from his lofty approach. but then what information are you seeking?

I am interested in a test, not a musical experience. This acoustic guitar was well recorded and quite revealing. And importantly had fully documented and straight audio path. I will ask Keith (Johnson) when I see him next if his tapes and digital are made the same way but I don't think they are.

Mike Lavigne · Dec 16, 2015

amirm said:
I am interested in a test, not a musical experience. This acoustic guitar was well recorded and quite revealing. And importantly had fully documented and straight audio path. I will ask Keith (Johnson) when I see him next if his tapes and digital are made the same way but I don't think they are.

what about 'same mic feed' don't you understand?

Shoot out: Reel to Reel Comparison to Direct Digital Recording

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