Does the quality of the server matter with Ravenna?

andrew_stenhouse · Dec 12, 2015

Provided it is powerful enough to do the real time conversion, and assuming for a moment that noise isn't an issue, is there any particular reason why a purpose built audio server, like the ones we have all done to get the best sound out of USB, should have corresponding application to the Ravenna ethernet protocol?

Like Amir, I think I will throw together a dead silent music server with an i7 SkyLake processor and a 2 TB SSD (perhaps even 2 x 1Tb mSSD) and ample RAM, with Windows 8 64 on it (Merging recommend 8). And a linear power supply - just because I have one lying around.

Second question - why not connect the ethernet to the Nadac and use wireless to control Roon, just as I am with my MBA?

All input would be welcomed.

Blizzard · Dec 12, 2015

andrew_stenhouse said:
Provided it is powerful enough to do the real time conversion, and assuming for a moment that noise isn't an issue, is there any particular reason why a purpose built audio server, like the ones we have all done to get the best sound out of USB, should have corresponding application to the Ravenna ethernet protocol?

Like Amir, I think I will throw together a dead silent music server with an i7 SkyLake processor and a 2 TB SSD (perhaps even 2 x 1Tb mSSD) and ample RAM, with Windows 8 64 on it (Merging recommend 8). And a linear power supply - just because I have one lying around.

Second question - why not connect the ethernet to the Nadac and use wireless to control Roon, just as I am with my MBA?

All input would be welcomed.

Theres been reports that cables, routers and servers can influence the sound with Ravenna. The best way to tackle this is with optical fibre isolation. The Ravenna implementation I'm working on is only going to have SFP fibre as an input option. The way to take advantage of this with the Merging products, as well as any DAC with internal Ethernet renderer, is to use copper to fibre converters. I go over this in detail on my streamer thread, as well as provide links to some products others have had success with.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19221-Streamer-to-kill-the-big-boys-for-under-250

By implementing this optical isolation, all outside variables such as cable, router and server should be eliminated. So a cheap off the shelf HP or Dell etc server, should sound identical to an uber tweaked several thousand $ audiophile server. I'll be running a few of these through the paces over the next couple weeks, and at that point I'll share my results.

As far as using your IPad to run the Roon GUI, there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing that. The wireless will be coming in through your router anyways. With optical isolation, even if enabling wireless in your router increased the noise slightly, it wouldn't make it to your DAC.

andrew_stenhouse · Dec 12, 2015

Thank you Mike,

Now, is dsd 256 available over optical? I assume you need a specific interface on your ??

Blizzard · Dec 12, 2015

andrew_stenhouse said:
Thank you Mike,

Now, is dsd 256 available over optical? I assume you need a specific interface on your ??

No problem.

Yes everything will function even better as the optical is faster. All these devices do is convert the copper Ethernet to fibre optic, and back to copper.

$131 USD on Amazon for the whole setup. You need 2 of the Fibre media converters, 2 SFP transceivers, and 1 LC-LC fibre optic cable. The one in the link is 5m long. But Amazon has dozens's of choices. Just make sure it's single mode, and LC-LC.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=11E15MSKKQSX0PVF1ZCF

http://www.amazon.com/TL-SM311LS-Si...,+MiniGBIC,+LC+interface,+Up+to+10km+distance

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005X...mode+cable&dpPl=1&dpID=41FKmIC6XpL&ref=plSrch

With this setup, you can put your server 10km away with no loss of quality!

Many claim powering the media converter connected to the DAC with clean power is beneficial. The 9v IFI ipower is what many are using:

http://www.musicdirect.com/p-322395-ifi-ipower-outboard-supply.aspx

andrew_stenhouse · Dec 12, 2015

Thank you

What about an optical interface straight from the server?

Blizzard · Dec 12, 2015

andrew_stenhouse said:
Thank you

What about an optical interface straight from the server?

You can get optical Nic's to install in the server as well. But you will need a router in the system for the wifi for the iPad. But I have heard of people using a dedicated NIC for the audio transmission with good results. Here's an example of one:

http://www.startech.com/Networking-...abit-ethernet-fiber-card-open-sfp~PEX1000SFP2

Do you connect straight from the computer to the NADAC now? Or use a switch?

A server like this is all you need. Something with the I7 4790 has plenty of power. Runs at around 25-30% CPU load resampling redbook to DSD 256.

http://m.newegg.com/Product/index?itemnumber=83-159-355

andrew_stenhouse · Dec 12, 2015

I have an unmanaged switch atm, so am limited to plugging the ethernet directly into my MacBook AIr.

But hang on - what am I missing - the Ravenna protocol is an ethernet one; how does optical then take advantage of that? I would have thought for async ethernet you need an ethernet connection.

Blizzard · Dec 12, 2015

andrew_stenhouse said:
I have an unmanaged switch atm, so am limited to plugging the ethernet directly into my MacBook AIr.

But hang on - what am I missing - the Ravenna protocol is an ethernet one; how does optical then take advantage of that? I would have thought for async ethernet you need an ethernet connection.

Okay. The best way will probably be to install one of these optical NIC's in the server, and connect direct into a Fibre media converter, then into the NADAC. Power the Fiber media converter (FMC) with a low noise supply such as the Ifi I Power. Connect together with FC-FC single mode optical cable.

NIC, FMC, Ifi Ipower, FC-FC single mode optical cable.

You will also need 2 single mode FC SFP tranceivers. 1 for the NIC, and 1 for the FMC.

Use a different router for the wifi, and Internet connection. This will be best as the Ravenna will have its own dedicated network free from Internet traffic and wifi.

You are still sending Ethernet with this configuration. It's just being sent over fibre optic, instead of copper. This isolates any nasty noise coming from the server/ and or routers. It eliminates any EMI/RFI picked up by the copper Ethernet cable as well. It will also make any fancy upgrades to the server useless and unnecessary.

andrew_stenhouse · Dec 13, 2015

Ahhh - sorry. Thought I may have been a couple steps behind the logic.

Thank you for explaining to an older luddite.

Blizzard · Dec 13, 2015

andrew_stenhouse said:
Ahhh - sorry. Thought I may have been a couple steps behind the logic.

Thank you for explaining to an older luddite.

It's simpler than it sounds. Just connect the stuff together and it will work. Map the Merging virtual soundcard through the optical NIC. Jitter's not an issue when it comes to Ethernet. If it was how could they stream bit perfect audio all the way from Tidal's servers in Sweden, to homes around the globe?

Jitter only matters after the signal is clocked inside the Ravenna interface in the DAC. Noise, RFI/EMI, is the only enemy to battle here. The optical network completely eliminates this out of the equation.

Toslink on the other hand is a different story. This is because it carries a delicate I2S and clock signal. Jitter is introduced by the tranceivers.

paul79 · Jan 7, 2016

Hey Blizz,

I am using the Totaldac Server, and am wanting to try going optical. I haven't read too much about it though....

Would the equipment in post 4 work for my setup? It goes like this:

NAS--Copper--WiFi Router LAN..... WiFi Router LAN--Copper--Server.

It is controlled over wifi with Ipad.

I think it should work fine, no?

Blizzard · Jan 7, 2016

paul79 said:
Hey Blizz,

I am using the Totaldac Server, and am wanting to try going optical. I haven't read too much about it though....

Would the equipment in post 4 work for my setup? It goes like this:

NAS--Copper--WiFi Router LAN..... WiFi Router LAN--Copper--Server.

It is controlled over wifi with Ipad.

I think it should work fine, no?

What are you going to be physically connecting to the DAC? I'm guessing the server. That would work, but you likely won't experience any audible improvement. The reason for the audible improvement in this example with Ravenna, is because the Ethernet is being directly connected to the DAC. So this isolates the noise coming from the server from getting into the DAC. In your case I'm guessing you are connecting the server to the DAC via USB. In this case using a streamer like the one in this thread, along with fiber isolation would take performance to the next level. This will effectively isolate server noise from your DAC, as well as handle the audio transfer to the USB much better, as it buffers the audio from the server, direct into the streamers RAM, and direct to the USB in the most efficient way possible using a lightweight Linux OS.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19221-Streamer-to-kill-the-big-boys-for-under-250

But going that route, it defeats the purpose of having a fancy server like the TotalDAC. You can get the best out of this streamer using a cheap general purpose computer as a server. Totaldac claim's, their server is already super low noise with perfect sound. So if you are using that server, you can't take advantage of getting better sound by using fiber. However it will work if you just want to try it for fun.

paul79 · Jan 7, 2016

Hey Blizz,

Yes, the Totaldac Server connects to the onboard reclocker via USB. A very short USB Cable.

I just thought that since using linear supplies to the Router and NAS in its current configuration, as well as using filters on the Ethernet Cables, makes easy to hear improvements, that the fiber may improve further. Even though the Router LAN Galvanically isolates all, there must still be something getting to the DAC that is causing harm since the above tweaks improve things. RFI most likely??

Blizzard · Jan 7, 2016

paul79 said:
Hey Blizz,

Yes, the Totaldac Server connects to the onboard reclocker via USB. A very short USB Cable.

I just thought that since using linear supplies to the Router and NAS in its current configuration, as well as using filters on the Ethernet Cables, makes easy to hear improvements, that the fiber may improve further. Even though the Router LAN Galvanically isolates all, there must still be something getting to the DAC that is causing harm since the above tweaks improve things. RFI most likely??

Maybe in your case, noise is transferring into the server from the NAS/router the same way. After checking it out closer, it looks to me that it is actually more of a streamer than a server. Not sure why it's called a server. The NAS is the actual server. It just uses a tiny little cubox as the brains for it. This explains the problem. So I suppose you can try it out. Just make sure to power the streamer side FMC with a low noise supply like the ifi Ipower. You would think that a streamer at that price point would have sufficient internal isolation. But you are just connecting the Ethernet into a $90 cubox, and they don't have internal isolation that's for sure. So basically it's just a cubox, with a USB to AES/EBU/SPDIF bridge built into the same box. The way I see it is, if the reclocking was any good, it wouldn't matter how dirty the Ethernet feed was.

My $235 streamer solution, combined with $180 of fiber isolation powered by ifi ipower achieves 100% isolation for a grand total of $415. Then you can also airplay to it, and take advantage of Tidal streaming via Roon. Upsampling via HQplayer, and control via the Roon ipad app which is best GUI out there today. I wonder how they would compare?

paul79 · Jan 7, 2016

Yes, that is correct. It is a modified Cubox. Shielded and running off a nice regulated supply. It is an endpoint for sure, or you could call it a streamer I suppose...

Don't get me wrong though..... After taking the measures to optimize the network, it really sounds fantastic. Never got my Mac to sound as good.

Just curious what the further isolation of fiber would bring, if anything.

Thanks very much
Paul

Blizzard · Jan 8, 2016

paul79 said:
Yes, that is correct. It is a modified Cubox. Shielded and running off a nice regulated supply. It is an endpoint for sure, or you could call it a streamer I suppose...

Don't get me wrong though..... After taking the measures to optimize the network, it really sounds fantastic. Never got my Mac to sound as good.

Just curious what the further isolation of fiber would bring, if anything.

Thanks very much
Paul

Yeah, I would try it out. It's not very expensive anyways, and everyone I've heard that has tried, including me, has had great results.

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