I would have thought a Merging product would have been tuned to be as neutral as possible. But maybe that's more with their studio stuff. Where they are going for extreme accurate capture of the original source.
Nadac?
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I would have thought a Merging product would have been tuned to be as neutral as possible. But maybe that's more with their studio stuff. Where they are going for extreme accurate capture of the original source.
Cheers Phil,
I may bring the Nadac up for a listen to some audio buddies of mine over the break. If I do, I'll be sure to drop you a line.
Now, my first criticism - the headphone out is all very ordinary. Why they put a 3.5mm jack + 6mm jack there I have no idea. It's not an iPod. Personally were it me, I would have a single 6mm jack or, even better, a single balanced one, and have a VERY good headphone amplifier section. I have no idea what it is, but its isn't very good.
Pity, the Mytek Manhattan I own has a superb headphone stage. You would buy it just as a headphone source amp I suggest, at $US5k.
Following on from my experiments at Blizz's suggestion, I can report a positive experience with the settings he suggested. I tried DSD7, but prefer the DSD5.2 with my system. It adds a fluidity that the 7 lacks. On the other systems that setting may be reversed.
I am very glad I followed his advice, and again thank him for his input in my thread.
I may bring the Nadac up for a listen to some audio buddies of mine over the break. If I do, I'll be sure to drop you a line.
Now, my first criticism - the headphone out is all very ordinary. Why they put a 3.5mm jack + 6mm jack there I have no idea. It's not an iPod. Personally were it me, I would have a single 6mm jack or, even better, a single balanced one, and have a VERY good headphone amplifier section. I have no idea what it is, but its isn't very good.
Pity, the Mytek Manhattan I own has a superb headphone stage. You would buy it just as a headphone source amp I suggest, at $US5k.
Following on from my experiments at Blizz's suggestion, I can report a positive experience with the settings he suggested. I tried DSD7, but prefer the DSD5.2 with my system. It adds a fluidity that the 7 lacks. On the other systems that setting may be reversed.
I am very glad I followed his advice, and again thank him for his input in my thread.
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Cheers Phil,
I may bring the Nadac up for a listen to some audio buddies of mine over the break. If I do, I'll be sure to drop you a line.
Now, my first criticism - the headphone out is all a little "meh". Why they put a 3.5mm jack + 6mm jack there I have no idea. It's not an iPod. Personally were it me, I would have a single 6mm jack or, even better, a single balanced one, and have a VERY good headphone amplifier section. I have no idea what it is, but I suspect it is op amps. Not that there is anything wrong with that...
Pity, the Mytek Manhattan I own has a superb headphone stage. You would buy it just as a headphone source amp I suggest, at $US5k.
Following on from my experiments at Blizz's suggestion, I can report a positive experience with the settings he suggested. I tried DSD7, but prefer the DSD5.2 with my system. It adds a fluidity that the 7 lacks.
I am very glad I followed his advice, and again thank him for his input in my thread. Once we round off your sharp edges Mike, you will be a terrific contributor here
I'm glad you like the sound. Did you experiment with any of the SRC filters on the far left yet? They have a pretty big impact as well. Although I prefer just as I recommended with the sabre chips. With DSD files and DirectSDM enabled, 100% of the filtering/modulation is bypassed. So you won't hear a difference with the different settings on DSD. What HQplayer has done for you is transformed your PC into a powerful SRC/SDM engine. Much the same as a product like the DCS Vivaldi upsampler:
http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/products/vivaldi-upsampler/
But utilizing hardware that's in your playback chain already anyways. It's an ingenious way to do things, and something more people should take seriously. Best bang for the buck upgrade I know of.
Thanks, does HQplayer do mch? I'll ask Dom Brulhart, chief engineer for Merging and the person running the NADAC project, about Emotion's ability to do SRC from PCM to DSD. Right now Merging has not yet released a manual for Emotion. I believe that Emotion only works with Merging products.
Larry
Yes, HQPlayer does mch in DSD too!
As far as I remember Emotion does PCM upsampling only, not PCM>DSD.
Now we just need to have Roon add Multichannel playback....
They are working on it. My review sample NADAC is off to Roon next week for development purposes.
Are they going to make sure the multichannel work via straight Roon, or the HQplayer engine? Maybe both? Not sure if native DSD will even process through the HQplayer engine. Hopefully they will have a setting equivalent to DirectSDM after the integration.
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If you are directly connecting your DAC over Ethernet to your server, a switch managed or otherwise, has no purpose in that connection. You are good to go.
Stepping back a bit, a switch provides connection between multiple computers/devices using Ethernet. We call it a switch because it can simultaneously move Ethernet packet between multiple connections.
Every wireless router comes with a little switch inside it that provides the 4 or so Ethernet ports on the back of it. It is also a "router" meaning it is able to move traffic between two different network types: in this case the wireless network and Ethernet. They also provide a third function which is to provide order in your network by assigning every device an "IP address" so that there are no conflicts (all IP addresses must be unique). This functionality is called the DHCP server.
Now, if you have more than 4 *Ethernet* devices, then you need a way to interconnect them. That is where a dedicated switch comes from. You can get switches from 8 to 48 ports and cascade them for even more. They also allow connection of Ethernet over Fiber if that is what you want to do (requires an adapter in the switch).
Switches come in different speed grades. My strong recommendation is to get a Gigabit switch. The cost differential is small and gives you almost 10X more than 100 mbit Ethernet. BTW, many switches in the routers come with 100 mbit/sec Ethernet, not gigabit. Every computer and NAS out there by the way already supports Gigabit Ethernet so you already have the endpoint that way.
Switches also come in other varieties. The regular one I have described is the "dumb" switch. It routes traffic as fast as it can between its port and that is it. It needs no drivers, no software, nothing to work. Plug it in and of you go. They are very mature technology and in general are more reliable as a connection scheme than wireless. So my strongest recommendation for an audio system is to use Ethernet wiring for everything but the control tablet where wireless is the only option.
Back to different switch types, the next step up in functionality is "web managed" or "smart switches." These have a fancy user interface where you can open a browser and check their status and such. Many multi-port switches these days are of this type. So the dumb variety of switches really doesn't exist anymore.
Finally we get to "managed switch." These have far more sophisticated features for network management. One capability in the specific is ability to setup partitions and assign higher priorities to them. For example if you are using a phone system over Ethernet (VOIP) in a large corporation, you can use managed switches to make sure that traffic gets through no matter what is going on in the network. This is done through a thing called the "VLAN." These switches have feature after features like this. *None of which you will be able to learn or do*
I suspect your dealer unless an IT guy, has any idea what a managed switch is. He likes to put one in there because he thinks they work better (they don't), or that they come from higher quality enterprise class product classes and hence can be more reliable.
Bringing all of this home, let's do math and see what is going on in our audio system. Let's say you are playing 24 bit, 192 Khz stereo audio. As it says, we have 24 bits and 192,000 of them per second for each channel. This is therefore 24*192,000 = 4,608,000 bits/second. We have two channels so we multiply this by two and get 9,216,000 bits/second. Dividing this by 1 million gets us megabits/second which is how our switches are rated and we get 9.2 megabits/second. There is some overhead so let's round this up to 10 mbit/second. That is the total amount of traffic we need to be able to move around our network to play such a file. If you are going double this at 384 Kbits/sec, then you are to 20 mbit/sec.
I recommended above that you go with Gigabit switch. That is 1000 mbit/sec. What we needed was just 20 mbit/sec or just 2% of its capability! So gigabit capability is overkill for audio. Where it comes handy though is when you buy or rip a bunch of music and want to copy it to your NAS. The NAS can easily run into hundreds of megabits/sec and anything less than a Gigabit switch will make that process slower.
Do you need manage switch then? The answer is no. Your audio subsystem does not use hardly any traffic and is no load on your switch. Managed switches tend to run hotter and are more expensive. So my recommendation is to get a fanless switch with ample number of ports from a quality vendor.
Probably way, way more than you wanted to know
.
If you are directly connecting your DAC over Ethernet to your server, a switch managed or otherwise, has no purpose in that connection. You are good to go.
Stepping back a bit, a switch provides connection between multiple computers/devices using Ethernet. We call it a switch because it can simultaneously move Ethernet packet between multiple connections.
Every wireless router comes with a little switch inside it that provides the 4 or so Ethernet ports on the back of it. It is also a "router" meaning it is able to move traffic between two different network types: in this case the wireless network and Ethernet. They also provide a third function which is to provide order in your network by assigning every device an "IP address" so that there are no conflicts (all IP addresses must be unique). This functionality is called the DHCP server.
Now, if you have more than 4 *Ethernet* devices, then you need a way to interconnect them. That is where a dedicated switch comes from. You can get switches from 8 to 48 ports and cascade them for even more. They also allow connection of Ethernet over Fiber if that is what you want to do (requires an adapter in the switch).
Switches come in different speed grades. My strong recommendation is to get a Gigabit switch. The cost differential is small and gives you almost 10X more than 100 mbit Ethernet. BTW, many switches in the routers come with 100 mbit/sec Ethernet, not gigabit. Every computer and NAS out there by the way already supports Gigabit Ethernet so you already have the endpoint that way.
Switches also come in other varieties. The regular one I have described is the "dumb" switch. It routes traffic as fast as it can between its port and that is it. It needs no drivers, no software, nothing to work. Plug it in and of you go. They are very mature technology and in general are more reliable as a connection scheme than wireless. So my strongest recommendation for an audio system is to use Ethernet wiring for everything but the control tablet where wireless is the only option.
Back to different switch types, the next step up in functionality is "web managed" or "smart switches." These have a fancy user interface where you can open a browser and check their status and such. Many multi-port switches these days are of this type. So the dumb variety of switches really doesn't exist anymore.
Finally we get to "managed switch." These have far more sophisticated features for network management. One capability in the specific is ability to setup partitions and assign higher priorities to them. For example if you are using a phone system over Ethernet (VOIP) in a large corporation, you can use managed switches to make sure that traffic gets through no matter what is going on in the network. This is done through a thing called the "VLAN." These switches have feature after features like this. *None of which you will be able to learn or do*
I suspect your dealer unless an IT guy, has any idea what a managed switch is. He likes to put one in there because he thinks they work better (they don't), or that they come from higher quality enterprise class product classes and hence can be more reliable.
Bringing all of this home, let's do math and see what is going on in our audio system. Let's say you are playing 24 bit, 192 Khz stereo audio. As it says, we have 24 bits and 192,000 of them per second for each channel. This is therefore 24*192,000 = 4,608,000 bits/second. We have two channels so we multiply this by two and get 9,216,000 bits/second. Dividing this by 1 million gets us megabits/second which is how our switches are rated and we get 9.2 megabits/second. There is some overhead so let's round this up to 10 mbit/second. That is the total amount of traffic we need to be able to move around our network to play such a file. If you are going double this at 384 Kbits/sec, then you are to 20 mbit/sec.
I recommended above that you go with Gigabit switch. That is 1000 mbit/sec. What we needed was just 20 mbit/sec or just 2% of its capability! So gigabit capability is overkill for audio. Where it comes handy though is when you buy or rip a bunch of music and want to copy it to your NAS. The NAS can easily run into hundreds of megabits/sec and anything less than a Gigabit switch will make that process slower.
Do you need manage switch then? The answer is no. Your audio subsystem does not use hardly any traffic and is no load on your switch. Managed switches tend to run hotter and are more expensive. So my recommendation is to get a fanless switch with ample number of ports from a quality vendor.
Probably way, way more than you wanted to know
Merging only endorses the Dell 2816 switch when using Ravenna.
Other switches will work, but the Dell 2800 series switches are the ones they tested the most. They are also readily available. The 2816 might be overkill for home applications not requiring that many ports.
http://www.dell.com/ca/business/p/powerconnect-2800/pd
That is a smart switch but with some managed switch features like VLANs. The lines has pretty much blurred between these categories of switches. I like fanless which the two smaller ones are.
If you are directly connecting your DAC over Ethernet to your server, a switch managed or otherwise, has no purpose in that connection. You are good to go.
.......
Probably way, way more than you wanted to know
Thanks Amir
That is exactly what I wanted to know. Extremely helpful. Over in another thread Mike (Blizzard) has been extremely patient with me explaining the benefits of and connections for a fiber over ethernet connection between server - Nadac.
So, if I can bring the two together, may I ask you both this: please understand I am of course an idiot with computers and tech, at least compare to you gentleman.
So this is what I have atm:
A TP Link modem (ADSL - Australia is in the dark ages with the interwebs) > Apple Airport Extreme. The AE has ethernet ports and of course wireless.
I hooked the Nadac up to the AE, and can see the Nadac and control it via my wireless MBA, but cannot wireless play music from my MBA to it. At least wirelessly. No sound at all. Even though it plays via eg Roon and sees the Nadac in Roon. Interestingly when I hook up the Nadac, my AE disappears from my Airport Utility app - says it isn't found. I haven't tried the MBA connected by wire to the AE and the Nadac connected by wire to the AE, but that will be next.
So my solution was to hook up my MBA directly to the Nadac, and play music. This of course works fine and sound quality is superb. If I use Roon, or A+, I can use their fine apps to control that on my ipad. With HQ Player, of course that is not available, as it has no app that I am aware of. No matter. Roon is on the way.
Obviously to take advantage of ASIO I want to move to a Windows solution. I did run Bootcamp on my MBA, just for fun, but the Win 7 loaded didn't play nicely with the Nadac ASIO driver. Whether that was bootcamp or Win 7 I don't know. Either way it wouldn't load and play.
In any event my solution is to buy a Windows Laptop, and connect directly, or build a windows silent pc, and connect directly both via ethernet, or via the AE, wired. Or both. In due course I may do both.
The laptop has advantage to me inso much as I can take it to friends houses & audiophile clubs with the Nadac for demonstration purposes. The server of course has advantage in that I can build a dead silent i7 server (with SSD) that will be permanently attached. Both will live in my entertainment unit close to the Nadac and AE.
Edit: @Amir - would you be willing to share your windows server build so I have an idea of the parts you used? Save re-inventing the wheel.
Merging recommend Win 8 x64. I don't have any great view on that and will use what they recommend, unless someone can advance a good reason why I shouldn't. Its only for audio.
So some quick questions:
1. Do I need another wireless router? ie can I use the AE to good effect. I like it very much as a simple and reliable router. ALl our devices are wirless at home. Except for the Nadac (and server /laptop) when I build one).
2. Is it possible to get a mobo or ethernet card with 2 x ethernet connections - one to the Nadac and one to the router, or should I put everything through the AE?
3. Taking up on Mike Davies's suggestion - if I did want incorporate a direct fibre connection froma server (or laptop) to the Nadac, how do I most easily do this when I have ethernet ports at both ends, ie is there a PCIe card or similar that allows for a optical out? and is it possible to then buy either a connector or a cable with inbuilt connector so I can plug into the laptop/server/Nadac? (apologies Mike if I am asking you to explain what you already have - as I say, I am more than a couple steps behind you and haven't digested your excellent post over in the other thread yet).
4. I get that optical isolates the Nadac from the evils of copper (whatever they may be) but is the advantage more theoretical or real? I ask as the sound quality I am getting from the ethernet straight to my laptop is simply superb, and if it is alot of fuss and trouble to implement an optical solution then I may just stick to the copper one. - as to which Mike - my router /server will only be a couple metres from my Nadac (they all live in the same cabinet) so I don't wan to introduce another box (ie a NUC renderer) if I don't absolutely have to - and I get what you say about fiber btw.
I would prefer a server to Nadac & server to AE connection if at all possible. The only thing connected by wires to my AE will be the server and the NADAC.
Thank you both so much in advance for taking the time and trouble to answer. I greatly appreciate your expertise and guidance.
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Edit: So I just hooked up my MBA to my AE via wire and my Nadac to the AE via wire and it plays back fine.
Whoops - spoke to soon. It isn't stable now.
Whoops - spoke to soon. It isn't stable now.
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Basically I recommend the exact system the same as I recommended in the other thread. No fancy server is required, just make sure it has an I7 quad core processor. If you use the optical NIC like I recommended in the other thread, that can be used for the Ravenna to the NADAC, and the other Ethernet connection that will likely be integrated into the motherboard on a desktop computer, can be the one that you connect to the Internet and mobile apps with. You don't need another router for this. The one you have is fine. The connection to the NADAC will be direct from the Optical NIC to the NADAC. Only thing inbetween will be the fiber to copper converter. The Dell 8000 series switches are mainly for studio applications where you have multiple Hapi's or Horus's connected together.
Ravenna only works on wired connections. So don't try wireless or it won't work as you found out.
I know it sounds good already with copper, but it will sound better with fiber.
David Robinson had a much different opinion about standard Ethernet cable with the NADAC, however he didn't try fiber. But until you hear both ways you'll never know what your missing.
http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/impressions-the-merging-technology-nadac-mc-8-dsd-dac/
You won't have to keep the server close to the NADAC either. It can be in another room or where ever. You'll just have to run the optical cable to wherever the server is. Many run through the walls to an office. As long as it's less than 10km away, you'll be fine.
You won't ever need to introduce another box like my NUC based streamer, because your DAC has a Ravenna interface already. The streamer is for USB DAC's, to add the functionality your DAC has built in.
If you want to use a laptop as the server instead, just buy 2 of the fiber media converters, rather than the optical NIC for the desktop. Use one on the laptop end, and 1 on the NADAC end.
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