MartinLogan Neolith May 2015 T.H.E. Show Report

Zero000

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The hybrid nature of the Neolith, may, not exactly mirror this phenomenon, however I suspect that it may well be the case.

I think so.

Good, honest post Harlequin.

The CLX is an impressive loudspeaker, I think. An easier listen than Neolith as dynamics tend to result in excitement as opposed to a calmer presentation. Are you running with subs?
 

Ron Resnick

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Yes, that's what I'm talking about! Thank you for posting that link. The Purist website looks inactive. From the photos the build quality looks chintzy.

If ML itself makes a SuperNeolith with stackable, matching BalancedForce 215s then I won't have to!

Yes, it is a risk to do it myself. I would much prefer a fully-integrated four tower solution made by the same designer (e.g., Dragon, Pendragon, MM7). The Neolith's 12" driver working up to 400 Hz might allow the Neolith slightly more oomph and cone excursion impact in that range than even the Dragon (100 Hz or lower crossover) or the Pendragon (200 Hz crossover).

On the other hand, if the low pass filter of a custom subwoofer covers a wide range and the crossover controls are flexible and phase is adjustable I do not see why custom subwoofer towers could not be made to integrate with the Neolith, especially since the 15" driver in the Neolith can be attenuated by -2, -4 and -8 dB.

I could attenuate the 15" driver in the Neolith and allow the towers to work up to 200 Hz and overlap with the 12" and the 15" drivers (which might ameliorate User211's sense that the bass sounds likes it is coming from the bottom third of the speaker), or I could use the conventional formula of bringing the subwoofer towers in under the 15" drivers with a crossover of 40 Hz or so.

The question then is: which subwoofer towers?

A) custom Mark Seaton (dual-opposed 15" drivers firing front and back, designed for stacking, very flexible filters and controls, class D amplification),

B) stacked ML 212s (dual-opposed 12" drivers firing left and right, highest low-pass setting is 80 Hz, class D amplification, awkward to stack since they are not designed for stacking),

C) stacked Rel Gibraltar G-1s (single front-firing 12" driver, flexible controls, class AB amplification, designed for stacking), or

D) a pair of Wilson Thor's Hammers with Watch Controller driven by VTL MB-450s (two front firing 15" drivers per side, very flexible controls, passive so I can select the amplifier) (DDK's preference)

I have been corresponding with Mark about using class AB amplification instead of class D, but that adds a lot of weight and complexity. And we don't know that some generic AB amplifier necessarily sounds better than a well-designed class D. (Driving Mark's dual-opposed subwoofer modules with banks of VTL MB-450s doesn't seem very practical.)

The final question is, and this circles back to User211's concern that this is sort of an experiment (which is why MikeL likes one-company solutions -- and I agree) is that it would be helpful to know which crossover regime is better: the higher-crossover/overlap solution or the conventional low crossover. For the higher-crossover/overlap at 100 to 200 Hz I might prefer a stack of 12" drivers, whereas for the conventional crossover at about 40 Hz I might prefer a stack of 15" drivers.

ML used an open baffle for the mid-bass towers on the Statement E-2. Dragon, ML and Mark Seaton use a dual-opposed (bipole) design. Pendragon is front-firing.
 
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Zero000

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I would try and keep the x-over point high at around 400-500 Hz. 500 Hz is the x-over point to the Apogee bass panel in my speakers. That gives you plenty of oomph high up the speaker and should make them sound meaty and weighty - as the Apogee does.

Make no mistake an Apogee bass panel will punch hard. Much harder than the Omega you heard, and keep it together especially if the frames are built to a much higher spec than Apogee's original standards. But if you are addicted to ESL mid range and treble I think you are barking up the right tree.

Beyond that I can't really give any real recommendations as I haven't done the necessary research into how I'd actually implement it i.e. what manufacturer's drivers I'd use, the cabinet design etc.
 

Ron Resnick

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The future Graz Apogee Diva Advance 7 is a contender.

Midrange transparency is why I have owned MLs. But recent auditions showed me that a good ribbon is, for me, close enough in transparency to the ML that the big ribbon speakers become contenders. (As for treble I think I actually prefer treble on the Magnepan tweeter over treble on the ML panel.)
 

Argonaut

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I think so.

Good, honest post Harlequin.

The CLX is an impressive loudspeaker, I think. An easier listen than Neolith as dynamics tend to result in excitement as opposed to a calmer presentation. Are you running with subs?

Oh most certainly an Achilles heal in the CLX, all folk have their preferred listening levels and for those sub 50% attenuation, and no higher, I would not really recommend this speaker if only intended to pootle along in 2nd gear.

I do have, and occasionally run, Descent I subs when the occasion and genre call for it, however my personal preference with live acoustic singer songwriter, crooner, Jazz, Baroque, choral etc.etc. is to run the panels at their full range with North of 200 Watts of valve power.
 

Zero000

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The future Graz Apogee Diva Advance 7 is a contender.

Midrange transparency is why I have owned MLs. But recent auditions showed me that a good ribbon is, for me, close enough in transparency to the ML that the big ribbon speakers become contenders. (As for treble I think I actually prefer treble on the Magnepan tweeter over treble on the ML panel.)

I think the Advance 7 will be worth a listen but it won't be able to achieve the sort of scale the set up you are proposing will be capable of, if that is high on the list of priorities. Which I suspect it is.

Tracking down a set of Statement E2s would be interesting. Have or did you ever hear them, Ron?

Also, talking to ML directly - they just might do custom jobs with sufficient financial incentive. Or give you a heads up about what may be coming. The former is unlikely and probably much more expensive than a more "independent" route.
 

Ron Resnick

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I think the Advance 7 will be worth a listen but it won't be able to achieve the sort of scale the set up you are proposing will be capable of, if that is high on the list of priorities. Which I suspect it is.

Tracking down a set of Statement E2s would be interesting. Have or did you ever hear them, Ron?

Also, talking to ML directly - they just might do custom jobs with sufficient financial incentive. Or give you a heads up about what may be coming. The former is unlikely and probably much more expensive than a more "independent" route.

The Diva Advance 7 is a Definitive-size speaker which Graz says will be made like the Duetta Advance 7. I have come to think that scale is correlated to the height of the speaker. Why do you think a Definitive/Diva-size speaker would not achieve the same scale as a Neolith? Or were you comparing the Diva Advance 7 to the Neolith + subwoofer towers? (I would add the same subwoofer towers to the Diva.)

I have looked on-line for months for a Statement E2. I have also posted for one on the ML Owners forum I have not found one for sale.

I heard the original Statement at Overture in Delaware, but I have never heard the E2. I run into Fabio fairly frequently at a local Italian restaurant at Sunset Plaza in West Hollywood and at the Equinox gym nearby. I have talked to him a couple of times about his Statement system, but he never invited me over to hear it.

I am in contact with a manager at ML. My inclusion of an as yet unmade BalancedForce 215 on my the subwoofer tower options list is based on my assumption that ML would want a 15" driver subwoofer offering for the home theater market. Since they could use the same design as a subwoofer for the Neolith I think there is good logic behind ML making a BalancedForce 215.

I never asked but I do not think there is any way ML would do a custom job. That just is not how the thought process and the decision-making process works at companies owned by private equity firms.
 

GaryProtein

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When Martin Logan was sold about ten years ago, they discontinued the Statement e2.

I spent an afternoon at Goodwins listening to them about ten years ago thinking they would be nice to have in addition to the IRS-V but I later came to my senses!

It may be worthwhile to track down a pre-owned set if you can find one.

You might have to wait for an owner to die. There aren't very many of them.

They are spectacular.
 

Ron Resnick

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It may be worthwhile to track down a pre-owned set if you can find one.

I am sure they are spectacular!

I have for many months now tried to track down a pre-owned set, but to no avail.

Even if I found a pair there would be a question of whether the paper cone mid-bass drivers and the paper cone woofer tower drivers have dried out. Also I do not know if ML would still service the active crossover electronics.

JonFo has the right idea about using a vertical array of midbass drivers. That surely solves User211's sense that the bass comes only from the lower third of the speaker (and that is a new problem since the Neolith 12" driver is the first ML cone to work at up to 400 Hz).

While I have you, Gary, how clearly delineated do you find solo vocalists to be on your IRS system? Does a solo vocalist appear "clearly," outlined and dead-centered? Or does a solo vocalist sound a bit diffuse as compared to ML or other panel speakers?
 

Zero000

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Diva Advance 7 will be OK against Neolith - I thought you were talking Duetta Advance 7.

TBH Ron I think the Diva Advance 7 will destroy the Neolith. It will be more dynamic, and not suffer from bass output at the bottom of the speaker only.

The Neolith is good, but the design parameters of the Apogee are just better in my opinion. Bass articulation will be better than the Neolith. I also think you will experience much better dynamics.

Now that is the first time I have done a plug for a speaker I have never heard. But knowing what I know and have learnt from dreaming up the specification for the Interstella, I think the Diva Advance 7 will seriously impress you.
 

Zero000

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I think Diva Advance 7 will pre-empt the need for bass towers. In fact they'll probably downgrade the speaker. Once you hear an Apogee bass panel working well in a seriously well constructed frame, I think you'll understand why.

Of course, I stand to be corrected:)
 

Ron Resnick

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Diva Advance 7 will be OK against Neolith - I thought you were talking Duetta Advance 7.

TBH Ron I think the Diva Advance 7 will destroy the Neolith. It will be more dynamic, and not suffer from bass output at the bottom of the speaker only.

The Neolith is good, but the design parameters of the Apogee are just better in my opinion. Bass articulation will be better than the Neolith. I also think you will experience much better dynamics.

Now that is the first time I have done a plug for a speaker I have never heard. But knowing what I know and have learnt from dreaming up the specification for the Interstella, I think the Diva Advance 7 will seriously impress you.

I agree the Diva Advance 7 will be very impressive. We will get a sense of it after I and my London friends all hear the Duetta Advance 7 when it comes to England in January.

Assuming the Duetta Advance 7 is great, and we can extrapolate that the Diva will be the same but more dynamic and greater scale, etc., Diva Avance 7 versus Neolith is still likely to come down to subtle distinctions and subjective preferences. I agree with your hypothesis that the Diva Advance 7 as compared to the Neolith will be more dynamic from 200 Hz all the way up to treble, will not suffer from bass output at the bottom of the speaker only, and will have better bass detail, texture and articulation.

In return for those superior attributes the Diva Advance 7, based on ribbons in general, will, in my opinion, be a shade less transparent in the midrange than the Neolith, and will not have the cone excursion impact of the Neolith below 400 Hz. But, again, these are fine distinctions and slight compromises. Some people will prefer one set of attributes (you and Bonzo prefer the ribbon speaker mix of attributes) and some people will opt for the other mix of attributes.

I am prepared to switch to your and Bonzo's camp. The one shade lower transparency of the ribbon speaker does not trouble me as I am willing to sacrifice that one shade of transparency to get the slightly greater "body" of ribbons from the lower midrange on up. I can "add back" the cone excursion impact I want with the subwoofer tower idea. (Of course the Dragon or the Pendragon would be the much simpler four tower ribbon solution.)

If the Diva Advance 7 achieves the sound qualities or better of the Analysis Audio AND adds impressive build quality, that could be my answer. That leaves only the issue that the Diva Advance 7 is made by Graz and his wife, 7,200 miles from Los Angeles.
 

Zero000

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As you might have gathered from what I have said, I have no vested interest in you buying a pair beyond my personal belief that they are genuinely a better balance of compromises than the Martin Logan approach.

I am biased, naturally, but we do share something in common - living with MLs for many years.

To me, all of your thoughts seem well reasoned and your descriptions of subjective experience seem markedly inline with mine.

I hope the demo works well and the driving electronics are up to the task.

One further point - any issues and I would hope Graz will be able to instruct one of the US based refurbisher's what to do.
 

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