Apogee Full range

Zero000

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Those Divas were screwed Marc. Way out of where they should be. I saw the FR plots. Jon will whack them into gear.

WE 16 a is phenomenal done right, but then so are GIP horns. The Silbatone stuff sounds so good purely because of GIP I think. If, and I repeat if, you hit the Silbatone gear in the right year at Munich it would seem. If you do, mind blowing. Never forget Ked and I listing to the 2014 set up. Ridiculously good.
 

spiritofmusic

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What can I say Justin
I messed up not getting to you twice and putting you out
No exposure to well set up Apogees at yrs
I will not just drop in on Henk, that may be Ked's style, but it's not mine
And Im still waiting for an invite from Jon, 15 months plus, and not a sign
And now an uber rich guy w damned impressive listening space, top gear, and Divas refurbed by Rich Murray himself, couldn't be trusted to sound any good
I'm seeing a pattern
I'm drawing a conclusion
 

bonzo75

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What can I say Justin
I messed up not getting to you twice and putting you out
No exposure to well set up Apogees at yrs
I will not just drop in on Henk, that may be Ked's style, but it's not mine
And Im still waiting for an invite from Jon, 15 months plus, and not a sign
And now an uber rich guy w damned impressive listening space, top gear, and Divas refurbed by Rich Murray himself, couldn't be trusted to sound any good
I'm seeing a pattern
I'm drawing a conclusion

The pattern is you can't demo properly? And Kondo+Spectral+Kondo cables+battery all good?
 

spiritofmusic

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Ked, are you struggling w the concept?
THEY demo the gear
And I ATTEND the demo
Get it right
 

853guy

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Aug 14, 2013
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853, I'm sure life spent on the road w Ked would be an adventure, but tbh he really is TOO good looking, and TOO charming for it to last
I'm a kinda "stay at home" girl but he keeps wanting to "play away" w all those fascinating trips to other guys
I really can only guess what he's getting up to, but dare not say

Can I please put the record straight?
I'm happy to travel a bit to demos that sound like they might be interesting
I've heard WE in Munich once, and now at this guy's house
Both times were left wanting
Unlike Ked I have no compulsion to go to further efforts to hear WE
It's not on my bucket list
Just like going to a fetish club, or into space, I'm not that bothered
Yes, I could be missing out on something, but if a couple of exposures to WE leave me totally cold, well so be it
Similarly Apogee
I missed my chance w User211 having to bow out of two invites
Couldn't be helped as the sale of my apartment was reaching the business end
My call
I then await the UK restorer to invite me to hear any pr he's making up, and 15 months I'm still waiting
And still waiting for Henk's invite
And now a potentially stellar setup I do get the chance to hear leaves me perplexed
Again, I'm not in the market, they're not on my bucket list
Do you think I would have gone down the SETs route, air bearing tonearm route, Zu full range/high efficiency route, if it took me months to get demos of each of these, and the demos each time were flawed?
I don't think so
Plenty of noise on these forums, I don't think my contrary views even register w the aficionados of WE and Apogee

Hey Spirit,

Like many great romances throughout history, heartbreak often happens at the hands of a hero. Ah... young love.

But to your main point, like anything in which there are many complex, inter-dependent variables - it depends, right? And for both WE and Apogee I think the variables are more complex and inter-dependent than most. But as a fan of the former and curious but unconvinced fence-sitter of the latter, I completely understand that even the very best setups would fail to meet the criteria of many astute hi-fi and music aficionados, which is what makes the world such an fascinating place to live. Heck, it's not even like WE guys agree on everything (or actually, anything).

I tend not to talk about stuff I don't like because life is short and there's no point in offending other people's sensibilities over something I consider a luxury even as a first-worlder. But, y'know, there are many brands I've personally found no love for that other people consider essential to their existence. And I'm totally aware that even were I to take the time to travel the globe to hear the best-of-the-best of whatever they had to offer under the most idealised circumstances possible, I'd still be nonplussed. C'est la vie.

The reality is that there's little of it. Perspective rules, and mine, yours and Bonzo's possibly have more crossover than perhaps is obvious from the sort of exchanges we do here. But even if we all achieve the systems we secretly dream of, it'd be unlikely they'd be the same, and probably even then, we'd fine find things we liked and didn't like about each of them.

Should you never hear another WE or Apogee you would evoke neither my rage nor my surprise. Enjoying our preferences, whatever they may be, and without needing to give justification for them should be an accepted part of the dialogue.

853guy

P.S. I agree with your aversion to fetish clubs and visits to outer space. But a fetish club in outer space... interesting.
 

853guy

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Bonzo75 said:
The pattern is you can't demo properly? And Kondo+Spectral+Kondo cables+battery all good?
Ked, are you struggling w the concept?
THEY demo the gear
And I ATTEND the demo
Get it right

Damn. And just when I though a Spring wedding might be on the cards.
 

Zero000

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853 guy - fantastic post.

Marc - just follow the flow of your own experience and ignore the likes of the Kedster and I.

Who gives a friggin' shite about Apogees or WEs if your experience set sez they suck? That might be due to unfortunate bad luck but so what? Eradicate them from your agenda. You gave them a chance. Move on - plenty of good stuff out there.
 

spiritofmusic

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853, you cannot begin to get my frustration w both these demos
All I hear from Ked et al is the stellar nature of these uber components
I am v aware he does warn of poorer demos as well, but unlike him, do not have the time and resources to travel abroad to hear the v best stuff
You would think an uber rich owner w the kind of room you only see w the best heeled US and Asian audiophiles would have got even a half way passable sound w the cash and effort put into an on the surface stellar set up
But no, I walked away w an impression of what Ked and other aficionados love about the presentation, but just no passion generated by what I heard, it was purely cerebral
The pluses re imaging, stage width, dynamics and effortless scale negated by shrillness, coldness, mechanicalness and complete lack of humanity
Never have I heard tubes so poorly served in a system
It got to a point where I was never in the moment although the overall presentation was really scary fast and uber impressive in that respect
Poor demo or not, one thing I deffo learnt was that the Divas were an uber sponge for power, infinite amounts are not enough, even the Spectrals felt wanting
The WE demo is best left wout too much analysis
Even in the comically tiny room the single 15a was placed in, w me 5' from it, I should have got an inkling of the magic the aficionados declare
What I got was an insistence on midband presentation w absolutely no resemblance to any real world sound or presentation I could make out
Since my life's mission is not to travel and demo, and travel again and re demo in another system, wash, rinse, repeat over and over again, I put these experiences down as the equivalent of bad dates w supermodels
I mean, they promise SOOO much, but if they can't cut it even at the candlelit dinner date phase, I ain't gonna insist on going to bed w them, or even worse, put up w them cooking scrambled eggs on toast in the morning
I can't imagine how many bad audio dates/lays/meals Ked has put up with in his desire to "break" components
 

spiritofmusic

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Justin, no wedding set
Unfortunately, Ked insists on testing to destruction: venues, catering, DJs, photographers
Ffs, just want to get married, but he's going from one wedding professional to another
I like a caterer I've met, a DJ etc
But he says we must check the whole world of them before choosing, and even then he declares he won't settle on a choice
What's a frustrated bride-to-be to do?
I think I'll call the whole thing off
 

KeithR

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The whole concept seemed wrong, a bit like the WE15 horn demo I went to recently
Apparently the treble was something like 5dB out
I really don't know what this all means
So w the two stellar spkrs I've been advised to check out, which sounded resolutely wrong, has meant that I wasted two days of my life and £00s in lost gas

Well, Zu Druid VI is coming to Munich - maybe you will enjoy it better :)
 

spiritofmusic

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Now you're talking!
Keith, no flagship Zu Experiences at Munich?
That's 2 years in a row they were due to be demoed
 

KeithR

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doesn't appear that way, but they will have a redone Zu Presence (1 driver Def):

http://www.zuaudio.com/tour

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/zu3/1.html

Regarding your Apogee demo, can't help to think the Spectral was an issue. But I'm totally with you - if I'm cold after multiple demos, its not for me nor if it takes a tremendous amount of work it won't be for me.

Life's too short and audio shouldn't be difficult.
 

spiritofmusic

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Keith, the Divas need power, shed loads of it, Spectrals should be fine
Issue was more poor synergy w Kondo, pwr supplied by batteries, not out of the mains, Kondo wiring, and poss mismatch wrt no MIT cbls
There was no shortfall in dynamics, or scale, but texture and tone was cold
Not sure if that's a Spectral thing
Puts to bed the conceit that one can just buy a pair of Apogees, any SS amp, and then experiment from there
You'd better get yr first choice at least half way decent, otherwise you're in for a world of hurt

A shame Keith, but my visit this yr was primarily to hear the new Experiences
I think I'll pass now, but really look fwd to hearing them when they finally get released
No doubt wood/composite resin monococque cabinet, Nano Tech impregnated full range drivers, high eff subs to be driven by First Watt Class A, and top of the range Radian Supertweeters, sounds VERY sweet in the proposed Experiences
Btw, those were my words paraphrased by Sjraen in his 6Moons snippet re the Experiences, as gleaned from chats w Sean
 

bonzo75

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Keith, the Divas need power, shed loads of it, Spectrals should be fine
Issue was more poor synergy w Kondo, pwr supplied by batteries, not out of the mains, Kondo wiring, and poss mismatch wrt no MIT cbls
There was no shortfall in dynamics, or scale, but texture and tone was cold
Not sure if that's a Spectral thing
Puts to bed the conceit that one can just buy a pair of Apogees, any SS amp, and then experiment from there

Wow - you actually said except in your last sentence in the quoted para, that he got an apogee, put an SS amp, and got scale and dynamics. So given the mismatch in electronics, the experiment to get tone should be easy peasy - btw, no one said setting up a Diva was easy. The Divas are actually Divas - highly fussy
 

spiritofmusic

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Yep Ked, now you're contradicting y'self
Divas are "divas" but getting that tone right should be "easy peasy"
So, I love the tone of NATs on my Zus, but found this lacking on Peter's Omegas
What do we glean here?
That I dislike ribbons tone even w NATs
There's certainly no lack of saturated textured tone on NATs, none at all
Where am I going to get this tone on the Divas if I can't find it on amps famed for tone on other ribbons
I also didn't get on w the 2d lack of depth on the Divas
What's your simple solution here?
 

bonzo75

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spiritofmusic

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Just why did you walk out of "Raw"?
 

bonzo75

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spiritofmusic

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Oh yes, I forgot, the script writer did come to me for ideas to put in the film
 

Brian Beck

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Back on topic... :)

I have not posted much on this forum, but I thought I might share my recent experience with Apogee Full Range speakers in this thread. I bought a refurbished pair directly from Rich Murry of True Sound Works in Minden, NV.

I have posted before about how much I have enjoyed my Apogee Divas. I am an unapologetic “tube guy” and have succeeded in driving the Divas in biamplified mode with two pairs of vintage Audio Research D-250 MkII Servo amps. I have doubled the power supply reserves in each amp to about 1100 joules - about the same as Audio Research’s current flagship, the REF 750. There is no reason why a semi-vintage amplifier such as this model cannot compete toe-to-toe with newer amps. In fact, there is less evidence of cost cutting in the D-250 than in modern ARC products. Bill Johnson went all-out with the 250. The transformers are enormous and there are no cheaper FETs replacing tubes in the front end. The Divas were happy and so was I. And then...

I heard that a fellow had a pair of Apogee Grand speakers for sale. I was curious about these legendary monsters. I discussed them at length with the seller. I knew that I could not live with the built-in Krell amps. As a EE, I figured that I might design tube amp replacements for the upper drivers, at least. I figured I could improve on the circuits having 50+ opamp stages in the crossover and processing sections. In any case I knew it would be an expensive and time-consuming project. I talked to Rich Murry about refurbishment of the Grand’s ribbons. Yes, that can be done. But he told me that, rather than the Grands, the best Apogee model really is the Full Range. He said I would be surprised how much better it can be than even the lovely Divas. I also talked to Bill Thalmann, and to several other Apogee owners, and there seemed to be almost a “sub rosa” consensus that the ultimate model was not the Grand, but the Full Range, Apogee’s very first speaker. The ribbons in the Full Range are actually larger than those in the Grand. Also, there was a sense that the pure aluminum midrange (and tweeter) ribbon, although uncompromising in its low resistance, was more articulate than the Kapton-backed ribbons of the Grand and Diva (as well as numerous other models). The Full Range and Scintillas are alone among the various Apogee models in having pure aluminum midrange ribbons and, not coincidentally, are the two most notoriously challenging models to drive successfully. Subsequent Apogee models used Kapton (or Mylar) to support multiple runs of narrow ribbons which usefully raised the impedance to 4 ohms or more. Even the Grand’s serpentine midrange ribbon was a concession to impedance matching. And, it was said, the Full Ranges were massively built to a higher standard than subsequent models. They are unbelievably heavy. And that’s probably a good thing.

So, long story shorter, all that got me to thinking. And to buying. So I have had the Full Ranges running now for about two weeks. I am just getting to know them, and to start the long journey of optimizing everything around them. I am using the same two pairs of ARC D-250 that worked so well with my Divas. At present, I am using the Full Range’s original passive crossover and interface boxes with their toroidal step-down transformers and passive crossover for the tweeters.

Wow.

Even in this initial, less than optimal configuration, I do not think I have ever heard a better loudspeaker. Yes, they are better than my prior best, the Divas. The Full Ranges seem to be able do it all, and then some. By “then some” I refer to that rare magic that takes one beyond the checklist of satisfied audio requirements. Majestic power and dynamics combine with subtle delicacy. These speakers manage what I think is a rare aspect in sound reproduction: the ability to simultaneously reveal velvet liquidity and sizzling texture, where there should be texture. Voices, strings and piano sound absolutely natural, if the recording is good (you can readily hear differences in microphones and recording quality with these speakers).

So what’s left to improve? Imaging is very good, especially in the front-to-back dimension, but it is still not what I know it can be. I had needed to improve my room treatments even with the Divas. Now I have even greater motivation to do so. The low bass is stunning, but probably can be controlled better.

Right now I am driving the woofer panels using the 4-ohm taps though the bass transformer in the interface box. Rich assured me that directly driving the 1.8 ohm (or so) woofer panels will make a huge improvement. He said that the Pass Labs X600 amps worked well for this. Before going solid-state for the woofers, which is an option, I will next bypass the transformer and drive the woofers directly from the D-250’s 1-ohm taps. My D-250s were among those that were made with undocumented 1-ohm OPT taps, probably with the Scintilla in mind, both being of the eighties. Oh, I should mention that the Full Ranges require the volume control to be set about 5 dB higher than with the Divas. Yes, the Full Ranges really do need the juice.

But for now, I am basking in the sound, and rediscovering old recordings. I will further tweak positioning in the room and other room parameters next, before launching into new electronics. The D-250s seem to mate well with these imposing speakers, at least for now.

Yes, I’d have to say the Full Ranges really are THAT good.

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