Vivid Giya G3
- Thread starter dallasjustice
- Start date
Yes, I did not want to point out that Bennics are not even on the list. As to size of the crossover, yes absolutely a 4th order would be huge - mine, 2nd order, doubled and almost tripled in size. Yet, people claim they sound good, so I need to listen to them...
You are missing the point. The Giyas would probably still sound great using Home Depot bulk extension cord for speaker cable. But once it was swapped out with premium grade audiophile cable, I'm sure it would be easy to tell the difference. Xover parts have an even bigger impact on the sound than cables. So if you like the Giya's now, just imagine with premium Xover parts. It's not altogether a bad thing. Because to make the same profit they are now using top end Mundorf parts, the cost would have like had to go up over $10000+ a pair. Owners can upgrade on their own for a small fraction of that.
The Mundorf silver/oils are huge. And they are expensive. Another great choice is using clarity cap SA's bypassed with the Dueland Silver/Wax/Oil. 90% of the sound for much cheaper, and less space.
The new Dueland bypass cap is unreal. So new Tony doesn't have it on the list.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_clarity_sa.html
http://www.partsconnexion.com/cap_film_duel_bypass.html
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Magico S7 crossover.
Yes Mundorf Evo's:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_evo.html
Supreme Evo:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_mundorf_supreme_evo.html
Mundorf M-resist Resistors:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_mundorf.html
And Mundorf foil inductors:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/inductor_mundorf_12.html
Iron cores for the woofers.
And even those could be improved with Dueland Silver/Wax/Oil bypass caps, and Dueland CAST resistors replacing the Mundorf's. There simply isn't a better resistor on the market for speaker xovers:
http://www.partsconnexion.com/resistors_duelund_cast.html
Look at this budget kit. Even the budget version of the Xovers uses the same grade of parts as the Magico. And for $200 more you can get the silver/gold Evo version:
http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Mundorf-MA30-Anniversity-Bookshelf-Speaker-Kithtml.html
Can assemble in 1 hour with a screwdriver. Has to be the best deal I've seen in audio yet for speakers. The MDF cabinet could be bettered, but for the price, it's probably right up there with speakers with $10000 MSRP.
Typical diversion, and I imagine you would get the same answer if you ask about the xover components. Think he will ever openly admit the xover components are crap?
Here's the thing of it Blizzard, the Giya's sound superb. I doubt you would get much argument from anyone here who has actually heard them.
Sure, the cost and perhaps quality of the caps you are referring to may be suspect, question is how much do they really impact the sound of the speakers. If we take marketing and profits aside for a minute, one could still ask if it was a deliberate design decision that LD made to incorporate these parts for not what they do, but instead what they do NOT. Not being in LD's shoes would make me hesitate to second guess him as to his design decisions. This is in essence what you are doing ( second guessing the designer) with pointing out the quality and cost of the Bennics. IMHO.
Sure, the cost and perhaps quality of the caps you are referring to may be suspect, question is how much do they really impact the sound of the speakers. If we take marketing and profits aside for a minute, one could still ask if it was a deliberate design decision that LD made to incorporate these parts for not what they do, but instead what they do NOT. Not being in LD's shoes would make me hesitate to second guess him as to his design decisions. This is in essence what you are doing ( second guessing the designer) with pointing out the quality and cost of the Bennics. IMHO.
There are different philosophies for designing all audio products. Some designers subscribe to the "parts" philosophy. Those folks believe they can build the best products as long as they've used the best parts. OTOH, there is the "design" philosophy which holds that it's the design which makes the final sound and the parts don't matter much.
Of course, these are extreme and, in reality, there can be a mixture of both philosophies. Maybe Blizzard is totally correct. Maybe the vivid can sound even better than it does. Who really knows? What's important to me is whether I own a product which primarily comes from the design philosophy. I've learned to be suspicious of products which are marketed primarily based on parts quality. I've often found those types of products come from the DIY/homemade style designers. These "parts jockeys", as I call them, will constantly come out with new versions sold as upgrades to monetize existing customers. Essentially, it's getting the customer to pay for the same thing two, three and four times without any demonstrable improvement.
I'm not merely interested in a collection of the best parts. I've had that. YGs are made from some the best parts available. Yet, the vivid speaker is still better in my room. I'm interested in the best performance in my room. That's why I love the G3.
Of course, these are extreme and, in reality, there can be a mixture of both philosophies. Maybe Blizzard is totally correct. Maybe the vivid can sound even better than it does. Who really knows? What's important to me is whether I own a product which primarily comes from the design philosophy. I've learned to be suspicious of products which are marketed primarily based on parts quality. I've often found those types of products come from the DIY/homemade style designers. These "parts jockeys", as I call them, will constantly come out with new versions sold as upgrades to monetize existing customers. Essentially, it's getting the customer to pay for the same thing two, three and four times without any demonstrable improvement.
I'm not merely interested in a collection of the best parts. I've had that. YGs are made from some the best parts available. Yet, the vivid speaker is still better in my room. I'm interested in the best performance in my room. That's why I love the G3.
The designer obviously designed the G3 around the crossover components used. He did something right as we have two forum members that are very pleased with their speakers. Could they be improved another 5 or 10 percent with better crossover components, maybe. Should someone recap the crossover to try and acheive that small percentage, no way! They are as spaz said, the sum of their parts.
Design vs. Parts?
From the NRC, Magico S5 lateral off axis:
From the NRC, Vivid G2 lateral off axis:
Magico S7 crossover.
From the NRC, Magico S5 lateral off axis:
From the NRC, Vivid G2 lateral off axis:
Dallas the parts are not about the response graph it is about the micro details and added clarity you hear from using them.
When you have been building speakers for 20 years, you know for a fact that what your saying isn't true. I have nailed it on the head 100% why Vivid chose these components. It's also the same reason many other mass market brands use them. If xover components don't matter, either do speaker cables. Replace your cables with Home Depot extension cord.
Do you seriously think upgrades only matter when they are on the external side of the binding posts??
This is not a design issue, it's simply a parts quality issue. It drives me crazy when I see guys spending big bucks on small tweaks and cables, only to send the signal through garbage xover components. I should build a drop in "Premium replacement" xover for the Vivid speakers. It would be a real eye opener.
There is such thing as good design and good parts. You don't have to choose one or another.
Okay swap the speaker cable with Home Depot extension cord and re-measure. Overlay the 2 plots and they will look like 1. But will they sound the same?
That's because he's old school. Back in the 80's, the best caps, coils and resistors, were at the level of the Bennic's today. He probably figures they were good enough then, why not now? Besides do you really think he's gonna want to get into a xover discussion when he clearly knows the level of components he's using. No of course not. That's the last place he'll want to go.
Blizzard the G3 are the sum of the parts used by the designer. If you go switching all the crossover components you will change the original voicing the designer was shooting for.
Yes to a better voicing. Bennic's are simply not the choice of parts to use for quality voicing. That's just like saying you want to voice a DAC with a high jitter clock. Or voice your $100000 system by using the DAC in your iphone as a source. I will say once again that the Bennic's are used because they are dirt cheap.
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