Visit to Avantgarde Acoustic Factory

marslo

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Hi Mariusz, nice post. I agree with SETs. I was mainly comparing the AG amps with AN and Airtight because we heard those. Audiopax is used on AG a lot. I would agree, use SETs where possible. And I would even try biamping with a SS for the bass horns, to get best of both.

Regarding budget, if I go for trios, I would not need a dedicated room. I would need a wider lounge, maybe 16 feet wide, which is doable, though it is tough in Central London. In fact, for such systems, less treatment etc is required. You need that more for cone speakers. Budget while higher on horns, can be lower on foo tweaks and amps.

As for Vox, that is a totally different jump in budget, not to mention I was not that taken in by what I heard at Munich twice, albeit in show conditions. Maybe because the WE horns were there too, and if I had the budget and space and the serendipity to land one, I would go for the WE system (or possibly ddk's Bionors which I have yet to hear, but description sounds similar or better).


I have also heard Living Voice for first time in Munich 2014, but I could stand only on one leg, so it was not stereo at all ;)
In Warsaw I participated in closed presentation by Kevin Scott and in some aspects that was the sound to die for.
 

bonzo75

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Originally Posted by Rodney Gold
Amazing dynamics. stunning bass , great coherence , flat yet wide soundstage , superb detail , jump factor , can go seriously loudly cleanly.. but I felt under dynamic attack.. relentless .. blitzkrieg.. shock and awe

I never previously read Rodney's description, but I think it is interesting that my subjective description of tbe sound of the Trios matched his description almost exactly (except for the shocky sound part). This shows, I think, once again, that the subjective descriptions we assign to the sound we hear is understandable and confirmable by others, and that our subjective descriptions are meaningful and useful.

I did not perceive the excellent dynamics and excellent transient response as shocky. I simply perceived those characteristics as amazing and equal to state-of-the-art for those attributes.

On a lot of music on great speakers, things become equal. When Mahler and Mussorgsky is played, things suddenly become unequal, especially on dynamics, details, and transients. I do find that Trios with bass horns pull ahead on full symphony to systems I have heard. That too without any added accessories to improve those things
 

asiufy

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Still leaves Ron and Bonzo's parting of the ways on front to back depth w/the new Trios, one happy w/it , the other feeling it distinctly lacking.

As I wrote before, if you find the soundstage depth lacking, you can always move the speakers further into the room. The Avantgardes WILL do layering, if you give them the clearance. Of course, how much depth you need is a personal thing, as demonstrated empirically by Ron's and bonzo's opinions.
 

Bill Hart

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No doubt using full on horns for all ranges is the way to go but size and room? Correct me if wrong, but even the re-booted vintage WE adds bass reinforcement beyond the horns, doesn't it? (Presumably those were bandwidth limited given their original application). Better drivers, yah! Aren't we really talking about a custom built system at this point rather than an existing product?
For what it's worth, my years of experience listening to the Duo +Lamm SET makes issues like "soundstage" and "imaging" largely beside the point. On a good recording, the instruments have an in the room quality. My speakers are a bit out from the back wall.
I was very impressed with the JBL K2 when I heard it years ago with ViVa.
Liked the Cessaro too, when demo'd by Jeff from High Water in a show.
I listen to every kind of music, from old psych to modern classical, country to dumb '70s pop songs. Not advocating any one approach. What's the practical answer there Bonzo- to get the speaker you want to hear? And, sorry didn't look up your profile, what are you presently using as benchmark? (Not into 'gear talk' per se, in the sense of playing one upmanship, those who know me know I'm actually pretty agnostic).
PS: and what is David using for bass with his Bionors? He's got a big horn system and has been around the block a few times....
 

bonzo75

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No doubt using full on horns for all ranges is the way to go but size and room? Correct me if wrong, but even the re-booted vintage WE adds bass reinforcement beyond the horns, doesn't it? (Presumably those were bandwidth limited given their original application). Better drivers, yah! Aren't we really talking about a custom built system at this point rather than an existing product?
For what it's worth, my years of experience listening to the Duo +Lamm SET makes issues like "soundstage" and "imaging" largely beside the point. On a good recording, the instruments have an in the room quality. My speakers are a bit out from the back wall.
I was very impressed with the JBL K2 when I heard it years ago with ViVa.
Liked the Cessaro too, when demo'd by Jeff from High Water in a show.
I listen to every kind of music, from old psych to modern classical, country to dumb '70s pop songs. Not advocating any one approach. What's the practical answer there Bonzo- to get the speaker you want to hear? And, sorry didn't look up your profile, what are you presently using as benchmark? (Not into 'gear talk' per se, in the sense of playing one upmanship, those who know me know I'm actually pretty agnostic).
PS: and what is David using for bass with his Bionors? He's got a big horn system and has been around the block a few times....

Bill, practical answer if I don't want to upgrade my room is a panel, or maybe MBL 116. As I mentioned because I like full range horns, if I can't I won't buy a smaller horn. I would rather upgrade my room size (which should happen next year) to around 15 - 16 ft wide.

I had ML Summits and now have verity leonores, but no, I don't use them as a benchmark. In fact, I think mistakes happen when one tunes one's ears to his own system, because as that system is usually compromised, one gets used to it thus building an incorrect benchmark in the subconscious. I am an audition freak and I travel and listen to different systems, my benchmarks do change over time, and I average a classical concert a week, which serves as a good benchmark.

To answer your question in a different way if you want to get a sense of speaker tastes to calibrate, I don't like boxes that cost over 5 - 10k used, I do like full range horns, especially WE, Trios with bass horns, and Tune Audio Anima, I like the WE 16A mono which works in a small room, and I like Analysis Audio Ribbon Magnetostat followed by Logan hybrids for a more practical solution. I will soon be listening to restores of Apogee Grands and Full ranges in Jan or Feb. My music for audition is purely opera based vocals, violins, and full symphony orchestra. I do throw in a jazz and rock song but they usually form points for rejection, not acceptance.

To answer your queries on WE, at Munich they used 1 WE for upper range and 1 for lower, in each channel. The 16a mono can be crossed over at 75hz but to get quality crossover is expensive. David's bionors I think are full range.

I should also add Marty's system is superb and a great benchmark though you can't isolate speakers alone, but his bass integration, jump factor, dynamics, staging and imaging are brilliant
 
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Ron Resnick

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I am interested in exploring the possibilities of using bass horns for non horns, like Panels. Analysis Audio + Bass Horns anyone?

Depending on the frequency range of the full range speaker's "problem" one is trying to solve I think this could be a brilliant idea which is worth pursuing.
 

FrantzM

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<snip>

I had ML Summits and now have verity leonores, but no, I don't use them as a benchmark. In fact, I think mistakes happen when one tunes one's ears to his own system, because that system is compromised, but one gets used to it thus building an incorrect benchmark in the subconscious. I am an audition freak and I travel and listen to different systems, my benchmarks do change over time, and I average a classical concert a week, which serves as a good benchmark.

<snip>

Excellent points. especially IMHO those I underlined or bolded.
 

Rodney Gold

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Shouty = too much in your face maybe too much upper mids...
Relentless attack was the impression that I got that everything was staccato , a sense of unnatural or artificial dynamics..never heard live that way ..
Make no mistake, I really loved the trios , the sense of drama and the excitement is addictive
 

Steve Williams

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PS: and what is David using for bass with his Bionors? He's got a big horn system and has been around the block a few times....

David uses an old JBL subwoofer with IIRC a large driver (?? 16") driven by an old Lamm ML 1.0 SET
 

Bill Hart

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Bill, practical answer if I don't want to upgrade my room is a panel, or maybe MBL 116. As I mentioned because I like full range horns, if I can't I won't buy a smaller horn. I would rather upgrade my room size (which should happen next year) to around 15 - 16 ft wide.

I had ML Summits and now have verity leonores, but no, I don't use them as a benchmark. In fact, I think mistakes happen when one tunes one's ears to his own system, because that system is compromised, one gets used to it thus building an incorrect benchmark in the subconscious. I am an audition freak and I travel and listen to different systems, my benchmarks do change over time, and I average a classical concert a week, which serves as a good benchmark.

To answer your question in a different way if you want to get a sense of speaker tastes to calibrate, I don't like boxes that cost over 5 - 10k used, I do like full range horns, especially WE, Trios with bass horns, and Tune Audio Anima, I like the WE 16A mono which works in a small room, and I like Analysis Audio Ribbon Magnetostat followed by Logan hybrids for a more practical solution. I will soon be listening to Apogee restores of Grands and Full ranges in Jan or Feb. My music for audition is purely opera based vocals, violins, and full symphony orchestra. I do throw in a jazz and rock song but they usually form points for rejection, not acceptance.

To answer your queries on WE, at Munich they used 1 WE for upper range and 1 for lower, in each channel. The 16a mono can be crossed over at 75hz but to get quality crossover is expensive. David's bionors I think are full range.

I should also add Marty's system is superb and a great benchmark though you can't isolate speakers alone, but his bass integration, jump factor, dynamics, staging and imaging are brilliant
Thanks, Bonzo, for your thoughtful reply. What is Marty's system? horn-based?
 

bonzo75

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My criteria were extremely high quality drivers, in short, non-resonant as possible horns , and then bass implementation which I can live with and have space for.
Cessaro Gammas ( five ways ) with front loaded bass hons would be my ideal, if I had the space and the cash!
Keith.

Actually, Ron is right. I can't relate to this non-subjective criteria. It would make much more sense if you told me what criteria you have for listening. Ron likes his drum thwack. Do you like snappy bass for rock, where notes start and stop on a dime, or fuller, richer, classical bass. What about width, depth, soundstaging (of course, to you these are artificial constructs). If you were a box lover, would your criteria be phenolic resin, aluminium alloy, or carbon fiber cabinets?

ps: Don't answer that last question
 

bonzo75

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Thanks, Bonzo, for thoughtful reply. What is Marty's system? horn-based?

No. before I answer that, warning that the individual components don't make the system sound palatable. It is the way he puts them together, runs his digital and TT through a DRC box (yes he does ADA), has a very high quality room, and generally matches components that by WBF standards are not SOTA, that gets him a SOTA system. His principles could be applied to many normal hifi component based systems, i.e. usual suspects like Wilsons, focals, etc, and their mid to low level models as well, to get a great sound. I actually visited him first because I did not believe in DRC.

His is Pipedreams, rolled over to JL Gotham subs using TacT DRC box, VTL pre, Spectral monos. Goldmund studio TT and Emm labs CDP.
 

Bill Hart

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No. before I answer that, warning that the individual components don't make the system sound palatable. It is the way he puts them together, runs his digital and TT through a DRC box (yes he does ADA), has a very high quality room, and generally matches components that by WBF standards are not SOTA, that gets him a SOTA system. His principles could be applied to many normal hifi component based systems, i.e. usual suspects like Wilsons, focals, etc, and their mid to low level models as well, to get a great sound. I actually visited him first because I did not believe in DRC.

His is Pipedreams, rolled over to JL Gotham subs using TacT DRC box, VTL pre, Spectral monos. Goldmund studio TT and Emm labs CDP.
I'm with ya. The system approach is the only thing that makes sense as integrated into the room. We are on the same page. Thanks.
 

bonzo75

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caesar

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Yesterday my wife and I tagged along on Bonzo75's audition of the Avantgarde Trios with basshorns at the Avantgarde Acoustic factory in Frankfurt, Germany. I had never before heard horns.

The Avantgarde factory is beautiful as a matter of contemporary design. We received a comprehensive tour of the facility and we saw the research laboratory, the production area, the testing area and the shipping area. The Avantgarde facility is the cleanest, most spacious, most contemporary office space for a high-end audio company I have ever seen.

The three Avantgarde people who hosted us were incredibly gracious, experienced, helpful and patient. Each of them is a true audiophile, and not just a designer or salesman. Each of them made our audition an educational and valuable experience.

We listened to LP on a basic Dr. Feickert turntable and tonearm and a Lyra Delos. The phono preamplifier was an Avantgarde prototype which biases the moving coils of the cartridge (don't ask me for more information because I did not understand this at all). We listened to the beautifully designed, DC powered, solid-state Avantgarde amplifier, an Audio Note amplifier and an Air Tight ATM-300 amplifier. Bonzo75 arranged for the tube amps to be flown in for our demo.

Bonzo75 and I both found the Audio Note amplifier surprisingly sluggish and slightly muddy-sounding and not dynamic. It was like the amplifier drank a bottle of red wine before we put it to work.

Bonzo75 found the Avantgarde amplifier to be impressive and very detailed and dynamic, especially on orchestral symphonic music. I agreed, but I was willing to give up a bit of detail and dynamics for the sweetness and warmth of tubes in the Air Tight. On vocals and simpler acoustic music we both liked the Air Tight.

This was the first state of the art audio system with LP my wife has heard. Previously we had found some of her favorite songs on LP and we played her songs as well yesterday. She played songs by Jeff Buckley, Nick Cave, Nina Simone and AC/DC. She definitely found that listening to her favorite songs made the whole experience more interesting and enjoyable for her.

The Avantgarde listening room is about 22' wide, 45' long and 14' high. An area rug lays in front of the Trios, but otherwise the room has no acoustic treatment.

The Trios, with the basshorns centered between the Trios, were pushed up almost against the front wall. I am used to having my MartinLogan speakers about 8 feet into the room in front of the front wall, with the sound developing a soundstage behind the speakers. The Avantgarde designer said the horns fire forward and that nothing is gained by moving them out from the front wall.

I found the basshorns in the middle of the room to be visually distracting. I inquired why the basshorns are not separated, with one column in the left corner and one column in the right corner. The designer said separating the left and right basshorn colums and putting them in the corners would be a sonic improvement but he wanted to show people how the system can be configured to take up less space in width.

The system, with its modest LP front-end, no room treatment, and nothing special wires, had, I thought, amazing detail and transient response and dynamics and "jump factor" and tonal density. (I am beginning to think I know what "total density" means.). On these attributes the system was at least equal to the best of the couple of the other state of the art systems I have ever heard.

I thought the tonal balance was very natural and I heard nothing bright (except when we switched to the solid-state amplifier). The transparency of the Trios was equal to what I think I heard from the Rockport Arrakis or perhaps slightly better, but the Trios were not quite as transparent in the midrange as what I hear from MartinLogans.

The basshorns sounded great and were the best, or equal to the best, low frequency drivers I've ever heard in terms of resolution and detail from drum whacks and from other bass information. I feel I heard deep and complete frequency extension but, because there were no large cones, I did not feel the physical impact which I'm used to from large woofers or subwoofers. This would be a bit of a messy addition, but I literally would put cone subwoofers on the system to cover 16 to 25Hz and to generate physical impact from drum whacks and kick drums.

I think that I am not particularly focused on "soundstaging" but I was unavoidably conscious that while I heard a beautiful wide, soundstage left to right I heard almost no depth, almost no front to back at all. Bonzo75 disagreed with me and I believe he was very happy with the soundstaging of the system, both left to right and front to back.

While I could happily live with the sound from this system for the rest of my life, I was disappointed in the rigidity of the frame on to which the horns are attached. Even a small amount of lateral pressure applied to the frame would move the thin skeletal structure of the Trios. When the Trios are playing music the frame vibrates, and when I touched the tubular cases of the horns they were vibrating also. I think this is another example of an unconventional speaker technology where the designer relies so strongly on what he believes to be the inherent technological and sonic superiority of his design that he doesn't focus on some of the basic things which conventional dynamic driver companies have focused on for years, such as solid frames and structures and maximizing inertness and minimizing resonance.

When I asked the designer about this, he said that he agrees with making the frame more solid and the tubular horn cases more inert but that the owner of the company is very happy with the sound produced by the current design and is not inclined to make the system heavier, clunkier-looking or more complex or more expensive.

I would like to see the horns mounted on a truly rigid, rock-solid frame of some sort with much thicker and heavier horn cases such that the frame does not vibrate and the horn cases do not resonate when music is playing.

My auditions of these state of the art speaker systems confirm for me the widely-held view that no speaker system is perfect. Which speaker system is the "best" in the world for each of us is going to be a very individualized answer to our respective personal and idiosyncratic listening preferences.

My wife and I thank Bonzo75 for inviting us to join him on this audition. We are grateful to the three gentlemen at Avantgarde who hosted us graciously for a fascinating and wonderful tour and a lengthy listening experience!

Hey Ron,

Great write up! If you are considering a second career, audio reviewing should be high on your list! You smoke the vast majority of the cheerleaders who do this job, who are too gutless to mention a product's fault.

Also, I believe you pretty much nailed "natural". :)
 

caesar

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Gentlemen,

I am a bit unclear as to why Avantgarde would create, and individuals would run, such high powered SS amps to run these ultra high efficiency horns.

I imagine tubes may not be to everyone's taste, but high powered SS doesn't make sense either. Can someone please shed light on this? Thx!
 

bonzo75

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Some people like the lower noise floor through SS, given horns are high sensitivity. Trios are 109 db. But then 115 db WE uses valves.

The high power is because somehow their amp is giving more power to the bass horn. Those who are reading this review should note that Ron switches himself off on SS and digital, and turns himself back on when LP and valves are playing. So I suspect, and he can correct me, that most of his observations are based on the 9w airtight
 

caesar

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Thank you! Seems like in this hobby you need several systems, depending on your tastes, and both tube and SS amps for each system.


What were some of the musical selections that you guys played, out of curiosity?
 

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