Visit to Avantgarde Acoustic Factory

Blue58

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Actually, I have heard them in 3 different rooms with 3 different amps plus at hifi shows.

Btw, it is not just AG, I just don't like the compromised lower down models of any horn system, whether it be Tune Audio, Cessaro, or Acapella. I like the Cessaro and Acapella midrange, and have never heard their full ranges.

But because of the way all the lower down models of the various horn brands compromise their bass crossing over to a cabinet, puts me off from any crossover based music. I don't see those problems with trios with bass horns. So for those who currently like their Unos, Duos, Acapella Violons, Liszt (different price ranges), that should not be an issue.

All I will say is that if someone does NOT like the duos, please do not extrapolate that dislike to trios with basshorns. Listen to the trios with basshorns separately, they are a totally different speaker.

Hi bonzo,

Fully agree with you re. the crossing over to the non horn bass modules on AG speakers, however can I point out that what we mean here is not a frequency anomaly such as a dip or peak in the crossover region as this can all be changed with the new Xd dsp options and on old models with crossover point/volume adjustment but a change in the character, tone, timbre or presentation of the bass with respect to the horn presentation. At least this is what I have come to perceive as their weak point. Yes, there is some rigidity and stability problem of the frames though I found anchoring the Duos to the floor was not beneficial in my room being an upstairs room with floorboards. I prefer them to 'float' on the carpet.

Most other comments about shouty, over dynamic or lack of depth to the soundstage is imo due to the equipment feeding them including cables, amps, sources etc. purely because they are so revealing. I just changed the IEC inlet on my amps to Oyaide from Furutech and it's amazing how that simple changed is revealed by the Duos. They take a lot of work to sing and don't believe AG want to promote that fact.

I've not been fortunate to visit AG HQ and hear the Trios and for many they are simply too large to accommodate so my vote, like Marlo's goes to the Duo Mezzo XD as the sweet spot in the range. I'll just never be able to afford them.

Please comment on any other insights you gained whilst visiting or any pics., we are all interested.

cheers
Blue58
 

spiritofmusic

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I'm coming in here as someone who heard AG Trios/subs 223s a few years ago w/Tron tube amps and TW Acustic AC3 tt, most recently AG Duos off immaculate 45s tubes amps/Audio Aero source, and last year Cessaro Liszts off Bakoon SS/GP Monaco tt.
My conclusions are obv not totally accurate because of span of time, but they have left me w/more abiding memories than any box spkr a-b-c demo.
Trios were spectacular w/amazing panoramic L to R spread, and dynamics to spare. But I found this stereo image just too large, like a blown up photo, and no intimacy in the music where an image had to be scaled down it remained larger than life. I would find this jarring in the l/t. I fully agree w/Ron that front to back depth was AWOL.
The Liszts were really sublime, w/mids to melt yr heart. Wrt the Trios, the image was much more realistically scaled, texture was greater and depth more appropriate. I struggled w/bass integration in Purite's room (Keith can comment on this himself).
The Duos, despite Ked's reluctance on them, to me really did a lot of things right. This was in no doubt helped in the fact that Blue58 has spent a lot of time getting them to sing, and the "fit" in his room is exemplary. But to me, they like all horns display a universal trait of being skittish/schizo on material where soundstage/dynamics are not excellent to begin. They can just sound dark and distant on material needing a more in yr face presentation. This is not lack of dynamics, just a sort of reticence to lock down an image and push it into the room.
So Trios great for overwhelming immersive experience, but flawed in many ways, the Liszts much more realistic and compelling (w/bass caveats), the Duos somewhat a compromise but a manageable one, and maybe for cost/performance point the best of the three.
So for me, horns remain beguiling, amazingly involving, but at the same time, not even handed on all material, and just too many caveats for me to fully invest in.
Whether hearing the Trios w/current gel drivers/dsp Basshorns, Liszts in a more bass friendly room environment, or the AG Duo Mezzos would swing me into the camp, I don't know. Somehow I doubt it.
 

bonzo75

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SOM, like I have mentioned offline, experience of Trios from 5 years ago can be very different, not only because of memory, but because of outdated trio version and no bass horns.

ps: Btw, I disagree with all that you wrote about Trios up there. It's possible because I have heard them multiple times recently with newer versions and bass horns
 

bonzo75

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I would like to know which drivers AG use, do they use compression drivers at all or just dynamic drivers, and are the bass horns actively driven! if anyone knows the crossover points that too would be useful.
Thanks in advance,
Keith.

No compression drivers, I would prefer them with TAD compression drivers if they integrate better. But that said, overall I am fine. Due to the XD you can cross them over at any point dependent on the room, while the normal setting in the factory is at 120hz
 

bonzo75

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Hi bonzo,

Fully agree with you re. the crossing over to the non horn bass modules on AG speakers, however can I point out that what we mean here is not a frequency anomaly such as a dip or peak in the crossover region as this can all be changed with the new Xd dsp options and on old models with crossover point/volume adjustment but a change in the character, tone, timbre or presentation of the bass with respect to the horn presentation. At least this is what I have come to perceive as their weak point. Yes, there is some rigidity and stability problem of the frames though I found anchoring the Duos to the floor was not beneficial in my room being an upstairs room with floorboards. I prefer them to 'float' on the carpet.

Most other comments about shouty, over dynamic or lack of depth to the soundstage is imo due to the equipment feeding them including cables, amps, sources etc. purely because they are so revealing. I just changed the IEC inlet on my amps to Oyaide from Furutech and it's amazing how that simple changed is revealed by the Duos. They take a lot of work to sing and don't believe AG want to promote that fact.

I've not been fortunate to visit AG HQ and hear the Trios and for many they are simply too large to accommodate so my vote, like Marlo's goes to the Duo Mezzo XD as the sweet spot in the range. I'll just never be able to afford them.

Please comment on any other insights you gained whilst visiting or any pics., we are all interested.

cheers
Blue58

Hi Barry, my first review of the factory visit is here http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...Avantgarde-Trio-Factory-visit&highlight=trios

Btw, though I don't like duos, Blue58 here has set them up the most pleasant I have heard, with his own DIY amps, and given that he has a 9ft wide room, there are not many other speakers that can operate so well in that constraint.
 

bonzo75

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spiritofmusic

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SOM, like I have mentioned offline, experience of Trios from 5 years ago can be very different, not only because of memory, but because of outdated trio version and no bass horns.

ps: Btw, I disagree with all that you wrote about Trios up there. It's possible because I have heard them multiple times recently with newer versions and bass horns

Well if you disagree w/me, then you prob disagree w/Ron as well. I don't see how my comment that they were panoramic w/challenged depth, great dynamics etc diverges much from Ron's words. Note, I did not mention the Trios's bass at GTA 5 years ago in my words.
 

spiritofmusic

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Just to reply to Marc's post, our first pair of horns were Cessaro Alphas, three way ,bass extended to 35Hz ish, when we installed the full range Liszt 20Hz up, they really kicked off the room, exciting amongst others a 28Hz node, which was based on the length of the room.
When Marc visited he wanted ,quite rightly to hear vinyl, at that time I was experimenting with various DSP acoustic solutions,but none at that time were running through my analogue set up.
There was room resonance ,nothing to do with the speakers, but the room speaker interaction.
A year or so later, we have RPG's Modex panels ,which have undoubtedly helped ( and reflected in before and after measurements)
but the really huge advance has been the Illusonic IAP8 processor and the bespoke equalisation created for my room by Christof Faller of Illusonic.

The sound now especially the bass is unbelievably good, whip crack fast with no resonance/overhang.
The passive treatment and the Illusonic processor have improved the sound quality hugely, far far greater than any other component change.
Sorry for the off topic post.
Keith

I'm very happy to make the return visit. Impending house move may open up my budget to afford Liszts. PM/email me.
I would very much like to hear the "complete" package, as opposed to SOTA highs and mids, but w/bass from a different "room".
 

Ron Resnick

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Originally Posted by Rodney Gold
Amazing dynamics. stunning bass , great coherence , flat yet wide soundstage , superb detail , jump factor , can go seriously loudly cleanly.. but I felt under dynamic attack.. relentless .. blitzkrieg.. shock and awe

I never previously read Rodney's description, but I think it is interesting that my subjective description of tbe sound of the Trios matched his description almost exactly (except for the shocky sound part). This shows, I think, once again, that the subjective descriptions we assign to the sound we hear is understandable and confirmable by others, and that our subjective descriptions are meaningful and useful.

I did not perceive the excellent dynamics and excellent transient response as shocky. I simply perceived those characteristics as amazing and equal to state-of-the-art for those attributes.
 

bonzo75

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Well if you disagree w/me, then you prob disagree w/Ron as well. I don't see how my comment that they were panoramic w/challenged depth, great dynamics etc diverges much from Ron's words. Note, I did not mention the Trios's bass at GTA 5 years ago in my words.

Well, to start with, Ron heard the model under discussion yesterday, you heard a model not under discussion 5 years ago. So I disagree with this "But I found this stereo image just too large, like a blown up photo, and no intimacy in the music where an image had to be scaled down it remained larger than life. I would find this jarring in the l/t" and this "So Trios great for overwhelming immersive experience, but flawed in many ways, the Liszts much more realistic and compelling (w/bass caveats), the Duos somewhat a compromise but a manageable one, and maybe for cost/performance point the best of the three." I did not see Ron posting this.

While of course you have a proper comparison of Liszt and Duos since you have heard them recently, you should post your Trio comparisons after you make the flight to Frankfurt. Extrapolating from memory from 5 years ago, of a model not under discussion, when your own tastes and experiences were different, and then comparing it to speakers heard recently, is misleading to the readers.
 

Argonaut

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Most other comments about shouty, over dynamic or lack of depth to the soundstage is imo due to the equipment feeding them including cables, amps, sources etc. purely because they are so revealing. I just changed the IEC inlet on my amps to Oyaide from Furutech and it's amazing how that simple changed is revealed by the Duos. They take a lot of work to sing and don't believe AG want to promote that fact.

I've not been fortunate to visit AG HQ and hear the Trios and for many they are simply too large to accommodate so my vote, like Marlo's goes to the Duo Mezzo XD as the sweet spot in the range.

Blue58

I would concur with Blue's point regarding the myriad ways in which ones AG system may be 'voiced' via equipment changes up stream of the horns, from the ponderously coloured to the forensically clinical, visceral enough to rip ones toupee off!

I would also agree that the latest revision of the Duo Mezzo would be my recommendation as best compromise should the full on Trio,Trio/Basehorn be beyond means or circumstance.
 

marslo

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Hi Mariusz, they really won't integrate well with 231 or an other subs. You need to get the bass horns. If space is a problem, think of putting them up vertically. That can be done. But then I am of the school where I don't really like other AG models, I find horn compromises too steep a drop to be worth it. Unlike with boxes and panels, I find that in horns one has to go all out or not at all.

To add to Ron's excellent report, the Audionote 9w was too colored to sound natural, it was not soundstaging well, and the bass was weak. The Airtight 9w 300b integrated was much more open, transparent, nice tone, but the bass was still slightly weaker than I would have liked.

AG's own amps were initially a bit harsh, but it was surprising how less harsh the music became once the preamp was disconnected from the main supply and switched to battery powered DC. The SS 150w class A monos really gripped the bass horn well. I preferred the Airtight tone and the SS bass.

The TT was not really a good set up. The rest of the set up too had no isolation, grounding, power treatment, or cabling. Pure simple speakers. Yet it was more dynamic with better integration, wider soundstage and details than other systems I have heard. I listened to Mahler 2 longest on this during an audition, and that is because even though it did the lound parts well, as expected, the lows and quiet passages of the symphony were being played really well. The transients were excellent.

Yes the frames can be sturdier, and Jim Smith and others who have set uo this regularly would recommend adding damping/isolation to various parts of the body and the bass.

This is no WE tonality, but has more bottom end integration.

I think biamping could be a possibility to grip the bass. Geoffrey armstrong, a Trio dealer based in Monaco, a dealer whose ears I respect because he knows his symphonies and his gear well and does not hard sell at all, likes Audiopax the best on the Trios. I believe it is a 30w valve amp. I haven't heard it but would try that and Lamm (latter costlier) and such 30w valves before biamping.

Those who read Ron's report and mine should note we audition very different music. For him conal excursion on bass is an important thing
Hi bonzo,

As you know, I also visited Geoffrey's Sound Galleries last Summer.
Let's start with amplification .
Two years ago when XA series were introduced to the market I had them from Nautilus, Polish AG dealer for a week - pre and power amp.
If my goal were the best classical music reproduction it would be my choice. The same if you are a pop or rock enthousiast- the bass has more authority and is better controlled than with the valve amp.
But ... I do not listen only to classical , I love jazz trios and singers like Ray Charles , Nat King Cole, Jamie Cullum, Stanislaw Sojka and women of course - Ella, Diana, Holly, Patricia, Melody, Stacey and others.
Here is the field of SET amps - ss design has to give up .
Then we have Count Basie, Frank Sinatra and jazz bands - I would say XA against my Ayon - this is very close.
Now Audiopax compared to Ayon Crossfire- for my ears and in my room SET winns hands down.

So I want to keep a SET amplification .

Then I think that every decision concerning the speakers is a compromise and a combination of : sound/ room size and acoustics/ money/ WAF;)
Only people with dedicated rooms and unlimited resources might stick to SQ only , I am not one of them.
If you are , then you have in your courtyard speakers which I listened to last weekend at Warsaw Audio Show and they reproduce human voices and complex classical music beyond compare.
If you have some 500 k pounds free- Living Voice Vox Olimpian are for you ;)

Now I am coming to my final point - in my situation Mezzo seems to be best upgrade for next 5 years of so . Then I will retire and who knows - maybe one day I will own Trios with basshorns. Then I will invite you :)
 
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spiritofmusic

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I would concur with Blue's point regarding the myriad ways in which ones AG system may be 'voiced' via equipment changes up stream of the horns, from the ponderously coloured to the forensically clinical, visceral enough to rip ones toupee off!

I would also agree that the latest revision of the Duo Mezzo would be my recommendation as best compromise should the full on Trio,Trio/Basehorn be beyond means or circumstance.

Bonzo's point is that the big lwr mids/uppr bass horn in the Trios is critical to getting the max out of AGs, and any model w/out it - Uno, Duo, Duo Grosso, Duo Mezzo, Duo Primo, are not worth considering. Period. He may well be right. Even though panels can mate w/a dynamic driver/woofer higher up the spectrum eg Neoliths going up to 450Hz w/the active subs before x'ing into the full range panel, it seems horns don't have this luxury, and a no compromise horn must go down to 100 before Basshorn kicks in.
Still leaves Ron and Bonzo's parting of the ways on front to back depth w/the new Trios, one happy w/it , the other feeling it distinctly lacking.
 

marslo

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marslo

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I would like to know which drivers AG use, do they use compression drivers at all or just dynamic drivers, and are the bass horns actively driven! if anyone knows the crossover points that too would be useful.
Thanks in advance,
Keith.
My Duo Omega have crossover at 170 Hz, then big horn without any manipulation amplifiers by its shape the range up to 2 kHz and then small horn goes up to the the limit one can hear . In my case this is probably around 12-13 kHZ.
Extensive test in polish but you can try google :
http://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/zespoly-glosnikowe/397-duo-omega
 
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Argonaut

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Fully acquainted with the bonzo world view regarding the AG range and on horns in general Marc, with which I tend to agree more than disagree, however for those folk for whom WE or Full Trio/basehorn are beyond their means or circumstance, yet wish to enjoy the positive elements that horns can bring, then Duo's /subs, Duo Mezzo etc. etc. are quite acceptable compromises.

There are, of course, a handfull of other potential candidates for ones 'hard earned' such as

http://http://www.bd-design.nl/contents/en-us/d32.html

http://http://www.tuneaudio.com/anima.html
 
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bonzo75

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I love the Animas.
 

bonzo75

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Hi bonzo,

As you know, I also visited Geoffrey's Sound Galleries last Summer.
Let's start with amplification .
Two years ago when XA series were introduced to the market I had them from Nautilus, Polish AG dealer for a week - pre and power amp.
If my goal were the best classical music reproduction it would be my choice. The same if you are a pop or rock enthousiast- the bass has more authority and is better controlled than with the valve amp.
But ... I do not listen only to classical , I love jazz trios and singers like Ray Charles , Nat King Cole, Jamie Cullum, Stanislaw Sojka and women of course - Ella, Diana, Holly, Patricia, Melody, Stacey and others.
Here is the field of SET amps - ss design has to give up .
Then we have Count Basie, Frank Sinatra and jazz bands - I would say XA against my Ayon - this is very close.
Now Audiopax compared to Ayon Crossfire- for my ears and in my room SET winns hands down.

So I want to keep a SET amplification .

Then I think that every decision concerning the speakers is a compromise and a combination of : sound/ room size and acoustics/ money/ WAF;)
Only people with dedicated rooms and unlimited reosurces might stick to SQ only , I am not one of them.
If you are , then you have in you courtyard speakers which I listened to last weekend at Warsaw Audio Show and they reproduce human voices and complex classical music beyond compare.
If you have some 500 k pound free- Living Voice Vox Olimpian are for you ;)

Now I am coming to my final point - in my situation Mezzo seems to be best upgrade for next 5 years of so . Then I will retire and who knows - maybe one day I will own Trios with basshorns. Then I will invite you :)

Hi Mariusz, nice post. I agree with SETs. I was mainly comparing the AG amps with AN and Airtight because we heard those. Audiopax is used on AG a lot. I would agree, use SETs where possible. And I would even try biamping with a SS for the bass horns, to get best of both.

Regarding budget, if I go for trios, I would not need a dedicated room. I would need a wider lounge, maybe 16 feet wide, which is doable, though it is tough in Central London. In fact, for such systems, less treatment etc is required. You need that more for cone speakers. Budget while higher on horns, can be lower on foo tweaks and amps.

As for Vox, that is a totally different jump in budget, not to mention I was not that taken in by what I heard at Munich twice, albeit in show conditions. Maybe because the WE horns were there too, and if I had the budget and space and the serendipity to land one, I would go for the WE system (or possibly ddk's Bionors which I have yet to hear, but description sounds similar or better).
 

bonzo75

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I am interested in exploring the possibilities of using bass horns for non horns, like Panels. Analysis Audio + Bass Horns anyone?

Also, if one changes the drivers in the trios to say, TAD compression drivers, can the XD help it adjust easily to integrate with the bass horn?
 

Blue58

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Hi Barry, my first review of the factory visit is here http://www.martinloganowners.com/fo...Avantgarde-Trio-Factory-visit&highlight=trios

Btw, though I don't like duos, Blue58 here has set them up the most pleasant I have heard, with his own DIY amps, and given that he has a 9ft wide room, there are not many other speakers that can operate so well in that constraint.

Cheers Bonzo, very kind of you to say that. In fact since your visit I now have Sablon Corona Reserva on both amps and source which has remarkably cleaned up the bass whilst reproducing that holographic vocal presence I so much adore. However, the biggest area of musical improvement was most apparent on classical music where the greater clarity has revealed tremendous layering within the soundstage, to my ears. I'm very happy and maybe Xmas will bring two more reserves for the subs. I can only wish.
You and RonR are most welcome to visit again though I know my amps can not attain max symphonic volume levels :)

Marslo, interesting that your crossover mimics mine , around 155Hz, unlike the majority consensus of 140hz which sounds too thin to my ears and I presume yours. Looking forward to your Duo Mezzo XD impressions soon.

cheers
Blue58
 

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