Eliminating Noise on my AC line - need assistance

Shunyata Triton to start, add a Typhon for max effect.

http://www.shunyata.com/our-product.../582-hydra-triton-version-2-new#!01_Tv2_front

Gene 15352 said:

Hello. I wanted to know if anyone could provide me with some direction on how I can eliminate the excess noise along my dedicated 2-ch system. I borrowed an Audio Prism Noise Sniffer today and a PS Power Noise Harvester. When I tested the noise along my 3 ac receptacles, there was lot's of noise. Using the Harvester only slightly lowered the noise on all 3 receptacles. I did the same test on other outlets around the house including some upstairs. When I plugged the Harvester in the other outlets, the noise completely vanished. Here's what's got me perplexed on my dedicated 2-ch system. Set-up is as follows: 3 Synergistic Research TESLA plex plugs; each on its on line and on same phase; 12 gauge wire; 12-15 feet run straight to panel box; no ground hum. Possible solutions, just guessing here? Switch out my current plugs for MIT Z duplex super, using MIT plug 6 on the receptacles, use a passive power distribution box. Just adding one more item, not sure if this really is part of the problem, the three dedicated ac plugs are 20 amp, and I still haven't changed one of the dedicated 15 amp breakers to a 20 amp breaker. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Click to expand...

you might investigate whether this noise might be related to in-home sources, such as refrigerators or other motors, or maybe be a time of day or neighborhood issue. see if you can isolate what it is. you need to start at the beginning. could even be just excess RFI. unless you can understand what you are trying to quiet you will just be throwing dollars at it hoping to get lucky. even checking ground rod connections and getting that optimized can be helpful.

you might even see if the noise is changed whether your gear is powered or not. sometimes noise gets back filled into the power grid.

some things seem to always help; such as top level (beyond the Walker) duplex outlets or just making sure all your power grid connections are secure. resonance in those outlets can be significant.

once you have at least tried to understand as much as possible about those basics, then adding and power conditioning/filtering starts to make sense.

the ultimate solution is a big boy whole system 'hard-wired in' isolation transformer; which then eliminates outside power grid noise. but that is not always a choice.

Gene 15352 said:

Hello. I wanted to know if anyone could provide me with some direction on how I can eliminate the excess noise along my dedicated 2-ch system. I borrowed an Audio Prism Noise Sniffer today and a PS Power Noise Harvester. When I tested the noise along my 3 ac receptacles, there was lot's of noise. Using the Harvester only slightly lowered the noise on all 3 receptacles. I did the same test on other outlets around the house including some upstairs. When I plugged the Harvester in the other outlets, the noise completely vanished. Here's what's got me perplexed on my dedicated 2-ch system. Set-up is as follows: 3 Synergistic Research TESLA plex plugs; each on its on line and on same phase; 12 gauge wire; 12-15 feet run straight to panel box; no ground hum. Possible solutions, just guessing here? Switch out my current plugs for MIT Z duplex super, using MIT plug 6 on the receptacles, use a passive power distribution box. Just adding one more item, not sure if this really is part of the problem, the three dedicated ac plugs are 20 amp, and I still haven't changed one of the dedicated 15 amp breakers to a 20 amp breaker. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Click to expand...

Good suggestions by Mike! What type of noise are you trying to eliminate? I don't recommend throwing money at expensive band-aids instead of figuring out and fixing the cause of the problem.
david

Some audiophiles may laugh, but a couple years ago I setup a sound room at my shop in an industrial area. The power was so dirty with all the welding shops in the area that it was even triggering the protection circuity in my amps at times. So I decided to look for a solution. I stumbled upon the APC Line-R 1200 on Amazon. I read some reviews about some guy trying it with his audio system and was impressed with the sound. So I spent the $47 and bought one. Not only did it stabilize the voltage enough that I never had any more problems, it also made my system sound better. So I decided to take it home to try in my main system. I was blown away! So I have been using this thing in my system ever since. I've recommended this to several people since, and they all agreed with my findings.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1Z3B7XXDF3FTPAM5ER03

Mike's advice is excellent.

Other usual suspects include plasma TVs and any "wall wart" transformer plugged into an outlet.

Gene 15352 said:

Can anyone explain to me what Mike meant by top level duplex outlets? Also, has anyone had good results from using the MIT Z duplex super or the Furutech plugs with the carbon fiber cover plate? Thanks.

Click to expand...

Furutech GTX-D Rhodium (R) or Gold (G) plated.

http://www.furutech.com/2013/02/02/1746/

the very best I've heard.

either Furutech or Oyaide frames and cover plates matter too. I use the Oyaide frames and covers as when I installed my 10 GTX-D (R) duplex outlets the Furutech frames and covers had not yet been introduced. I'm told the Furutech versions are a little better.

I have not tried the MIT. might be great.

btw; proper installation of a duplex outlet is important. my Furutech dealer happens to be a very knowledgeable engineer type with all the proper tools for crimping and tightening those outlets and frames. you don't want to spend $200-$300 per outlet plus another $100+ for frames and covers to get the most mechanically and metallurgically perfect outlet and then do a 10 cent job on the install and not get what you pay for. if they are not firm and tight they will sing along with the music and add noise.

some gear is worth buying local from an expert. unless you know how to do it right get some help.

until you eliminate the noise from your outlets you will never realize how much there is.

my GTX-D's have been in my system now for 4 years. when my friend visited last month he checked all my outlets to make sure they were still firm and tight. they were.

Do you really need 60 amps for your system? The problem with running 3 lines is the grounds aren't all tied together as close to your system as possible. The more resistance between component grounds the more noise.

It's best to plug your system into one power distribution system that isolates your audio from the rest of your electrical system by providing surge and emi/rfi filtration and ties all of your audio system grounds together at one point as close to your audio system as possible. It's basically star-grounding your audio system. I star-ground my tube preamp and SET amp, have a double-insulated source component and using this method my system is dead-quiet with your ear inside a 102 dB horn. If you really need to have 3 separate lines than I'd use 3 power distribution systems each with their own surge/emi/rfi filter plugged into each of the 3 receptacles with a heavy ground wire connecting the ground points/chassis of the 3 power distribution systems together. At that point it's really best to buy a wall-mount sub panel with the features you need like SurgeX or Torus but using 3 point-of-use power distribution systems with their grounds tied together would work fine too.

People create problems for themselves by making the AC power system way more complicated than it needs to be and plugging components into separate lines whose grounds don't tie together close enough to the audio system. The whole point of grounding is to create a reference voltage that is exactly the same everywhere in the system. In practice this can never happen, but the issues can be reduced significantly by following good grounding and power distribution practices. Overkill is nice but it's very rare a system needs more that a single 20 amp line. I'm all for using good parts... I have a Furutech GTX(R) with wall plate and cover which is around $600 feeding a heavily modded SurgeX using top end rhodium plated Furutech IEC, more GTX receptacles and a great power cable using top end Furutech plugs... it's worthwhile but it's not going to solve basic issues with poor AC power system design.

Gene 15352 said:

Last question re Furutech ac receptacle package. Is there a particular ac junction box that you Mike, or anyone recommends to use with the Furutechs? At first I was hesitant to post this as it seems like a silly question but perhaps there are junction boxes that work better than others for a particular electrical wire set up. Please, limit your lol comments. Thanks.

Click to expand...

I'm sure that would make a difference but I'm not sure which box is best... I'm guessing the ideal way to do it would be a plastic junction box with the Furutech wall plate mounted to it. The wall plate is pricey but it's a 1/2" chunk of powedercoated billet aluminum, the stainless/carbon fiber cover is similarly overbuilt. Both are worth it imo, the difference vs a high quality hospital grade receptacle is enormous and the GTX receptacles won't scratch the plating off your AC plugs, which hospital grade units will do. I've seen hospital grade receptacles put deep scratches in rhodium plating!



Just a FYI, Furutech is having a 25% off sale on receptacles, wall plates and covers right now. That's the deepest discount they have ever allowed dealers to give.... On top of that, I happen to offer free burn-in using an AudioDharma cooker and free shipping. The GTX(R) receptacles need a solid month of burn-in so it kinda sucks to buy ones that aren't burned-in already. Mods feel free to delete this paragraph but I thought it might be helpful to some.

I know this thread appears to have gone dormant, but I thought I'd share some improvements that were suggested to me that have appeared (sonically) to have removed every shred of noise present in my system and done wonders for my noise floor as a whole…

Each of these bullet points represents one very good upgrade, taken together, they are really impressive to me in terms of how my system came to sound after completing them....they certainly together address the OP's question (IMHO).

*note the items below assume you don't have a higher-end solution like one of those monster Equitech or Torus house panels with own Isolation transformer, etc....

- reorganize main house panel so the dedicated circuit(s) for my audio system (in my case a split-off for a sub-panel) is the very first drop on the first leg of the main house panel (left leg as you look at panel)
- reorganize main house panel so all high draw and/or noisy power devices (washer, dryer, refrigerator, electric oven, microwave, heat pump/AC units, etc..) are on 2nd (right leg) of the panel
- balance rest of circuits so that left and right leg of house panel have equal/near-equal loads and you don't exceed code in any way
- ensure you have solid copper busbar(s) in your main house panel and sub-panel if you have one
- note the above may require some rerouting of incoming leads to each circuit breaker, while you are at it, ensure all your breakers are good quality and if necessary replace them with new to assure that…
- have an ENVIRONMENTAL POTENTIALS EP2050 WAVE-FORM REGENERATOR/SURGE SUPPRESSOR unit on main house panel (see my system listing here and on Audiogon for more details on EP units)
- apply one ENVIRONMENTAL POTENTIALS EP2750 GROUND FILTER to each dedicated circuit for your system in main house panel or sub-panel if you have one....; these are installed in the house panel or sub-panel as appropriate
- For outlets, after a lot of years/using many others, I prefer AVATAR ACOUSTICS AFTERBURNER8 duplex outlets....
- ISOTEK EVO3 TITAN power conditioner for main amplifiers (up to 2); in my case, my stereo amp and a bespoke HDPlex custom-built DC power supply for my WAVELET processor
- "tether" using a power cord with Neutrik "PowerCon" connectors, an ISOTEK EVO3 SIGMAS power condition to the EVO3 TITAN; all front-end/other equipment gets power from the SIGMAS....
- tethering the TITAN and SIGMAS together was recommended to me by the US Isotek distributor; I've not seen this solution applied in many systems but the results for me were extremely impressive to say the least
- use a star-grounding device of your choice for all equipment; I have used Granite Audio's "Ground Zero" for years. I cannot see my way clear to move "up" to one of those uber 5-figure grounding solutions that are out there (5-figure when you add up all the uber-expensive grounding cables that they tend to push you to purchase....they may be superior but I have not found a clear and compelling explanation from anyone as to what they actually provide that is "better" than the Granite Audio solution...

Any questions on the above, please let me know and I’ll be glad to help in any way that I can. As I’ve mentioned specific products above strongly, I want to be clear that I am not affiliated with any manufacturer, dealer or distributor as I am only a fellow “audio nut” and simply love this hobby!

Thank you for all that detail and your kind words....I have the same 'issue' in that as I've made each upgrade or change in the power substrate of the system, I've experienced an uptick in one or more aspects of playback but now,with all in place together for a long time, what I hear cannot be attributed to one component, part or upgraded install technique more than the others. It's a 'high class problem' really so I don't lose sleep over not knowing but I definitely enjoy the result!

I like what you've done with power in your system and appreciate the attention to detail and all that you've put in; I am glad to hear that you are happy with the results!

How is the JPS 10-gauge bulk wire? Ironically enough, when I was looking at putting the new sub-panel and dedicated circuits into the new house in late June 2014 and wiring in my AFTERBURNER8 outlets, I priced out JPS, Acrolink 7N-P4030, Analysis Plus Power Oval10 and 2 or three offerings from Furutech. The length of the run needed up from the sub-panel in the garage below and the in-room lengths needed in-way added up with any of these to $2.5K, $3K and above; I just could not justify spending that much, given the length needed, for in-wall wiring and went instead for the best 10awg "romex" I could find (Southland). Do you hear a large difference using the JPS/other high-end wire in-wall? Let me know as I've yet to talk to someone before you that actually took this big a plunge on in-wall wiring. Happy Listening!!!

Gene 15352 said:

(...) Also, since I've installed the JPS wire, I've noticed a slight decrease in the amount of heat the amps give off. I thought I was just making this up and it was all my imagination. However, I had several weeks to hear the amps before the JPS wire was installed and then recreated the surroundings several times in terms of the time of day when I listened, furnace on or off, door closed etc. and there is a noticeable difference, slight, but noticeable - not at the expense of losing any dynamics. (...)
Gene

Click to expand...

If it the heat issue confirms it probably means that you listening at higher levels than before, induced by a subjective change of the sound quality. The Pass's are class A - the system permanently gets the same power, at higher levels more power is dissipated in the speakers, less in the amplifier.