SAT carbon fibre tone arm from Sweden

Detlof

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before I answer you, it's only fair to point out that there are many aspects to a 'whole' tone arm design and we are only talking about one of them. so when we try to compare designs maybe there is compensating benefits in other areas which equal overall better performance. in any case, I am not inferring anything in terms of 'best' or superiority of performance. we need side by side comparisons to get into that stuff.....especially at these levels of performance.

all that said; the negative effect of compromised VTA adjusting designs mostly has to do with overall precision and focus. when I play my most delicate and texturally interesting recordings there is another level of information and suspension of disbelief. the fog lifts just that little bit more. like a fine focus on a camera lens. obviously there are steps and degrees of this. and maybe out there an even better approach than what I'm hearing exists.
I'm only commenting based on my observations over a few years of tone arm development with the Durand tone arms. he used my room for testing a few dozen times and so I was able to observe various approaches to solving this problem, both mechanically and in terms of metallurgy and material.

Thank you Mike, your so well measured reply makes perfect sense to me. I wished we could hear all those different designs side by side. An impossibility of course, especially where I live and I am also just a tad too old, to travel around like our friend Bonzo, so often enough I have to rely on the opinion of others, whose ears I hopefully think to know and trust.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Thank you Mike, your so well measured reply makes perfect sense to me. I wished we could hear all those different designs side by side. An impossibility of course, especially where I live and I am also just a tad too old, to travel around like our friend Bonzo, so often enough I have to rely on the opinion of others, whose ears I hopefully think to know and trust.

our friend Bonzo is scheduled to visit here later this week; I'm sure he will have an opinion to share.
 

MatthewC

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Aug 27, 2014
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all that elimination of easy adjustment is because you can hear the difference even if the adjustment screw below is not backed off. if it touches the bottom of the bearing tower, even when the clamp is securely tightened around the bearing tower, you can hear it's negative effect. and the Telos base is massive, one piece, and very heavy, and that has an effect on the sound too.

I can echo the comment about the effect of the adjustment screws, even on the SAT arm. The sound of the arm with the VTA adjustment screw removed is somewhat more free flowing. I added a M6 titanium screw back to cap the hole, and again the sound changed. Still looking for a good way to cap the big hole left open with the adjustment screw removed....
 

XV-1

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JackD201

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Raul can think whatever he likes :)

As for me, I was sold when I heard it on an AF1 with TD Ti with CH P1,X1,M1 into Coltranes banging with 2kw peaks. Clear as a bell from outer to inner groove. Every bit as clear as the 12" Virtu mounted on the same table in my brother's system too. That was a situation where tracking distortion wouldn't only be audible, it would be painful to hear. If there are things I like about it, it certainly isn't distortion especially tracking distortion. I don't know how Gomez worked out his math and honestly I'm really not that interested in the same way I'm not that interested in the way Raul worked his own math. There are even shorter arms out there like that stubby one from Japan that works very well too.

There are cases of course as Raul says that distortions are actually preferred. Some are indeed pleasant distortions. IMO tracking distortion is not one of those. It is unfortunate that his piece was riddled with put downs. It makes his labor seem much less scholarly and objective.
 

TLi

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I have a SAT, before that I used SME V and Graham Elite on my TechDAS Air Force One turntable. SAT has blown the previous two arms away by a very clear margin.I am not a scientist, just a music lover. The sound from SAT is simply better, more resolution, more dynamic and less noise.The overhang from SAT protractor is much larger than other. I used Acoustical Systems smartractor to try different settings. The sound was not as good. They are dim and flat when compared with SAT one. You may call it as distortion, but to me it is a distortion in a good sense.I know a few SAT users, all of them are very happy with it. Tango in Thailand actually bought a second SAT after the first one to be installed onto his multiple turntables. The fact and the sound speaks for itself.SAT is a good tonearm. I have no doubt about it. Listening is believing.*
 

CKKeung

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Jun 17, 2011
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Raul can think whatever he likes :)
As for me, I was sold when I heard it on an AF1 with TD Ti with CH P1,X1,M1 into Coltranes banging with 2kw peaks. Clear as a bell from outer to inner groove. Every bit as clear as the 12" Virtu mounted on the same table in my brother's system too. That was a situation where tracking distortion wouldn't only be audible, it would be painful to hear. If there are things I like about it, it certainly isn't distortion especially tracking distortion. I don't know how Gomez worked out his math and honestly I'm really not that interested in the same way I'm not that interested in the way Raul worked his own math. There are even shorter arms out there like that stubby one from Japan that works very well too.
There are cases of course as Raul says that distortions are actually preferred. Some are indeed pleasant distortions. IMO tracking distortion is not one of those. It is unfortunate that his piece was riddled with put downs. It makes his labor seem much less scholarly and objective.

Hello Jack,
IMO SAT and Virtu are both top tonearms in the market but they have quite diff sonic characters.
What's your view?
Thanks.
 

JackD201

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Hi CK yes indeed quite different character. The Virtu is very relaxed and elegant the SAT is smooth but quick at the same time. I do not find that either mask or damp out musical information much at all. They are two of my rather short list of arms where it is very easy to follow musical lines from start to finish while maintaining the balance of the whole. Other arms in my list include the Elite, Thales Simplicity II and the 4-Point. For me the 4-Point most resembles the Virtu, the Thales the SAT, the Elite somewhere in the middle. Koetsu Platinum Diamonds on Virtus are a match made in heaven IMO. My brother's Virtu was one of the last built while Peter was still with us. It is the S shaped one. I wonder what the current straight arm is like.
 

XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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It seems like Rauls thread has been removed.

I posted it more so we could discuss why the SAT arm sounds so good despite higher than normal tracking error distortion?.
Is it the massive build quality, the bearings?
I know that V1 of my wonderful Thales Simplicity tonearm had bearing issues, so he had to go to even higher tolerance ones.

Do SAT have their own alignment or do they use Loef, Baer or Stevenson. Has any SAT owner played with the different alignments? There have been debates going for 40 plus years in the best compromise alignment.
 

JackD201

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AFAIK SAT has its own sets of 2 nulls. The local distributors of SAT and Thales are both friends of mine and the two are likewise close friends. Having observed them both doing set up and adjustments, bearings certainly matter. On the SATs adjusting bearing friction makes a world of difference depending on the carts being installed.
 

jeff1225

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Jan 29, 2012
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You can watch videos on YouTube of Corvette crushing Ferrari's on the open road in Saudi Arabia and Dubai. I'd still rather own Ferrari. So is the $30,000 SAT 10,000 times better than my $3,000 NOS SME 3012R? Of course not, still wouldn't mind owning one someday.
 

CKKeung

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Hi CK yes indeed quite different character. The Virtu is very relaxed and elegant the SAT is smooth but quick at the same time. I do not find that either mask or damp out musical information much at all. They are two of my rather short list of arms where it is very easy to follow musical lines from start to finish while maintaining the balance of the whole. Other arms in my list include the Elite, Thales Simplicity II and the 4-Point. For me the 4-Point most resembles the Virtu, the Thales the SAT, the Elite somewhere in the middle. Koetsu Platinum Diamonds on Virtus are a match made in heaven IMO. My brother's Virtu was one of the last built while Peter was still with us. It is the S shaped one. I wonder what the current straight arm is like.

Thanks Jack for your sharing!
I have the same feeling on Virtu and SAT.

BTW IMO Elite and Simplicity2 do not belong to this league.
The new Thales Statement may be.
I am not familiar with the 4Points.
 

ddk

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May 18, 2013
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You can watch videos on YouTube of Corvette crushing Ferrari's on the open road in Saudi Arabia and Dubai. I'd still rather own Ferrari. So is the $30,000 SAT 10,000 times better than my $3,000 NOS SME 3012R? Of course not, still wouldn't mind owning one someday.

What makes you think that the 3012-R is 2nd to any arm?;)

david
 
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JackD201

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Thanks Jack for your sharing!
I have the same feeling on Virtu and SAT.

BTW IMO Elite and Simplicity2 do not belong to this league.
The new Thales Statement may be.
I am not familiar with the 4Points.

The Simplicity and the 4-Point are tough to set up. The Simplicity more so. At the last show I couldn't get the 4-Point going as well as I'd liked and called in the local distributor's go to guy. Granted my set up skills are basic on any other arm than the easy set up for dummies Grahams, the guy brought the 4 Point to the next level. The local Thales guy took forever to set up his arm (Those counter weights are brutal!) but when he finally got it done, there was no denying the excellent, excellent tracking playing through a TW, Top Vitus Masterpiece amp and M3s. Detailed but very sweet if a bit light down below compared to the others. Something easily made up for elsewhere in the chain or in speaker placement. I like that these two are relatively affordable as well. Definitely candidates for a seconds system for me as I've really run my audio money to the ground of late LOL. This "arm" race has left me selling all my non-elite grahams and has pushed my Triplanar to display status. I would like to see the Thales Statement one day. I would REALLY like to have an S shaped Virtu of my own someday. Not many were made however and not many I think would ever see the second hand market. I'm not holding my breath for that one.
 

CKKeung

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The Simplicity and the 4-Point are tough to set up. The Simplicity more so. At the last show I couldn't get the 4-Point going as well as I'd liked and called in the local distributor's go to guy. Granted my set up skills are basic on any other arm than the easy set up for dummies Grahams, the guy brought the 4 Point to the next level. The local Thales guy took forever to set up his arm (Those counter weights are brutal!) but when he finally got it done, there was no denying the excellent, excellent tracking playing through a TW, Top Vitus Masterpiece amp and M3s. Detailed but very sweet if a bit light down below compared to the others. Something easily made up for elsewhere in the chain or in speaker placement. I like that these two are relatively affordable as well. Definitely candidates for a seconds system for me as I've really run my audio money to the ground of late LOL. This "arm" race has left me selling all my non-elite grahams and has pushed my Triplanar to display status. I would like to see the Thales Statement one day. I would REALLY like to have an S shaped Virtu of my own someday. Not many were made however and not many I think would ever see the second hand market. I'm not holding my breath for that one.

Yes, Simplicity2 has a typical Swiss sound of finesse and sweetness yet a bit wanting in term of authority.
It and Elite are relatively "affordable" when compared to SAT and Virtu. Haha

In Hong Kong Thales and DaVinci are under the same dealer.
Virtu is limited in supply and there aren't many owners but Simplicity2 and Statement are selling like hot cakes in Hong Kong.
 

byrdparis

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Nov 24, 2015
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i really drooling over getting myself the new SAT model 9" i was read about it and even heard it a few time at a friend house with several cart's.
his second arm is a Kuzma air line...
i have among others the Simplicity II and i wonder how much better it could be in comparison.
i will have 5 tonearms count in the next few weeks when il get the last two;
Thales Simplicity II
Ikeda 407 CR1
SME V-12
Ortofon RS212D
Dynavector DV507MK2 (that i am most curios how it will preform against my others)
i am really debating with myself if i "want" to "Bleed" so much for a tonearm. although it probably the best there is now-days, arguably...
 

CKKeung

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Jun 17, 2011
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i really drooling over getting myself the new SAT model 9" i was read about it and even heard it a few time at a friend house with several cart's.
his second arm is a Kuzma air line...
i have among others the Simplicity II and i wonder how much better it could be in comparison.
i will have 5 tonearms count in the next few weeks when il get the last two;
Thales Simplicity II
Ikeda 407 CR1
SME V-12
Ortofon RS212D
Dynavector DV507MK2 (that i am most curios how it will preform against my others)
i am really debating with myself if i "want" to "Bleed" so much for a tonearm. although it probably the best there is now-days, arguably...

Hello Byrd,
Have you considered the option of upgrading your AF3 to AF1 instead of buying more tonearms?

I have two good friends who are using Simplicity2, one on AF1 and one on AF3.
The setup skill for Thales of the latter may be the best in Hong Kong, surpassing the staff of the Thales dealer.
However the end result of AF1+S2 is so much better in every aspects even when paired with a lesser cartridge.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Yes, Simplicity2 has a typical Swiss sound of finesse and sweetness yet a bit wanting in term of authority.
It and Elite are relatively "affordable" when compared to SAT and Virtu. Haha

In Hong Kong Thales and DaVinci are under the same dealer.
Virtu is limited in supply and there aren't many owners but Simplicity2 and Statement are selling like hot cakes in Hong Kong.

Hahahaha Yes they are "affordable" compared :D

Do you think your contact there in HK can source an S wand Virtu? That would be worth the short flight over Hehehe
 

Tango

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I heard the original SAT is going something like $40,000 now.

One bad thing about SAT is its cable sleeve. The rfi shielding could be better and it should be glued to the arm cable inside, not just heat bonded.

Kind regards,
Tang
 

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