I had a friends Monaco with Triplaner arm. Wonderful table with an amazingly low noise floor.
I preferred my Exclusive P3 table but could happily live with the Monaco.
Idlers vs Direct Drive vs Belt Drive
- Thread starter ddk
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I had a friends Monaco with Triplaner arm. Wonderful table with an amazingly low noise floor.
I preferred my Exclusive P3 table but could happily live with the Monaco.
Over the years Pioneer introduced a number of very fine products under their Exclusive brand.
david
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Exactly.
The common scheme for feedback in a direct drive turntable is frequency based. If the frequency changes even a small amount, it is immediately corrected. Depending on the build, the rotational speed may be very accurate where the numbers are concerned, so a perfect 33.33333333 within 100 nanoseconds is certainly possible. The elephant in the room is that such a turntable makes many, many mistakes in a single revolution when you consider the corrections as being deviations from consistency. Imagine stylus drag on cocaine, and you have the picture. Although that direct drive unit may sound great to someone who doesn't have a better turntable available for direct comparison, dynamics are affected in a negative way, especially micro-dynamics. Moreover, a mask is constantly being laid over subtleties and nuances that are evident with better source equipment. So, detail and musical cohesion is lost to some degree, although it may be a very small degree. We are talking about the good stuff here, not junk, so that small degree matters.
An analog version of digital jitter can't be a good thing.
+1
What's ironic is that idlers compared to DD tables have very poor numbers yet sonically when properly set up even the half century old Garrards sound better than at least %80 of the tts I heard and owned. The top models still reign supreme.
david
I bet he's talking about a pitch control, there aren't any readouts. Once in a while the tape deck was running a little slow or a little fast while recording, pitch control is to compensate. Quite a few tables have it, sometimes I speed up rock records for effect.
david
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The constancy and accuracy of a turntable’s speed rotation may not be the most important facet of its performance quality, but one would think it should be a sine qua non.
As Peter Moncrief accurately analised a decade ago…..
As Peter Moncrief accurately analised a decade ago…..
Those who claim to prefer turntables which sound “right” but measure poorly can hardly lay claim to legitimacy over those who prefer turntables which sound “right” and measure well…?
I was waiting for someone with serious nous to comment on the DD kudos to Mosin and your good self for giving us some substantiated answers to the conundrum --
I totally agree with the comments -having heard the GP Monaco on at least two occasions --while it is fine product--I felt I could sense the "cogging" on the Piano piece played --plus the Soundstage was lacking over what I was used to
However those with a DD penchant I'd say definitely audition --it is a serious step up from the Brinkmann Bardo.
I preferred my Shindo 301 just had more "there" to the involvement .
BruceD
Hi
I am far from a turntable cognoscenti ... I have a modified Technics SP-10 MK3 and it sounds very good and on really good pressing of piano very close to the speed stability digital can have on piano. I do however fail to hear the "cogging" many here are talking about... I can understand someone preferring the sound of something but I have a very hard time understanding this statement
I will retreat but hyperbole control should be applied here IMO.
I am far from a turntable cognoscenti ... I have a modified Technics SP-10 MK3 and it sounds very good and on really good pressing of piano very close to the speed stability digital can have on piano. I do however fail to hear the "cogging" many here are talking about... I can understand someone preferring the sound of something but I have a very hard time understanding this statement
.. but it seems some do... I have not heard this dragging from the better DD out there ... I would think something like the Wave Kinetics don't do it and will bet that my lowly Technics doesn't either
I will retreat but hyperbole control should be applied here IMO.
Yes I have not heard "cogging" from the SP10 or Wave Kinetics--I have friends with both Tables-(the 10 III has the excellent Krebs Mods as well) so I will qualify my previous statement the cogging was apparent on the GP Monaco
I'd go so far to say the SP10III is indeed classic and on different level to a Monaco ( especially with Richard's Mods!)--I'd have the Technics in a heartbeat --be proud of your choice there.
Bruce D
Frantz, I think Mosin is explaining his technical view of the implication of a servo correction system. If a servo is correcting deviations from its determination of perfect speed stability, Mosin is asserting that those corrections imply the occurrence of "mistakes" (i.e., deviations) which needed correcting. (Please correct me, Mosin, if I misunderstand you.)
I am not seeing an introspection or hyperbole control issue here.
The idea that DD turntables are continuously correcting their speed and thus never actually maintaining it is a myth that has been used for decades by proponents for, and adherents to other drive systems.
Most of the good Japanese vintage DD decks are quartz-locked. Now for those who might not regard the term 'locked' with any great significance here is a quote from the Japanese Victor Company:-
Here is a Frequency Chart printout using the Feikert Speed App which shows the analogue response (in real time) of the sine wave produced of the 3150Hz Test Tone on my Victor TT-101. If someone can point out the 'evidence' of the servo-control in action on this sine wave we may have a dialogue.
And most modern belt-drive decks with motor controllers are using (often sophisticated) servo-controls to correct their speeds in a less direct and less effective manner than any DD, so if you think you can hear the servo action of a direct drive but are oblivious to that of the Air Force 1...you must have selective hearing abilities.
Harry Weisfeld of VPI has been manufacturing largely belt-drive turntables for over 40 years but is not as inflexible as some....
Most of the good Japanese vintage DD decks are quartz-locked. Now for those who might not regard the term 'locked' with any great significance here is a quote from the Japanese Victor Company:-
In other words, the quartz-locked motor is turning at precisely the correct speed at all times. The servo control is only activated under increased load or voltage drop and with a sophisticated positive and negative servo-control as invented by Victor, it is inaudible and undetectable yet those who claim to be able to hear this servo-control in action seem unable to provide any scientific evidence of its measurable existence.
Here is a Frequency Chart printout using the Feikert Speed App which shows the analogue response (in real time) of the sine wave produced of the 3150Hz Test Tone on my Victor TT-101. If someone can point out the 'evidence' of the servo-control in action on this sine wave we may have a dialogue.
And most modern belt-drive decks with motor controllers are using (often sophisticated) servo-controls to correct their speeds in a less direct and less effective manner than any DD, so if you think you can hear the servo action of a direct drive but are oblivious to that of the Air Force 1...you must have selective hearing abilities.
Harry Weisfeld of VPI has been manufacturing largely belt-drive turntables for over 40 years but is not as inflexible as some....
Thank you so very much for this post... I was about to write something and it involved physics, moment of inertia and feedback devices, etc.. yours is more to the point .. Thank you!
You're very welcome Frantz. I don't mind those who appreciate their own choices in equipment but I try not to 'bash' those choices about which I have my doubts...
I have both a belt-drive Raven AC-2 and several DD Victors and can happily listen to all. Implementation is more important I suspect, than actual 'religion'?
Many belt-drive turntables with multiple speeds have mechanical devices or rely on manual effort to move the belt between different-sized pulleys on the motor shaft. Due to difficulties in designing multiple-speed synchronous motors whose speed can be controlled electronically, such turntables frequently have DC servomotors. The disadvantage of DC servomotors is that they rotate in steps rather than continuously – the resulting "cogging" can add noise during playback. Helical armature motors can be used to overcome this. Problems with belt instability and deterioration in the past have largely been solved by use of modern elastic polymers.
Since the 1970s, DC motors have declined in popularity;[1] high end audiophile turntable designs use the synchronous motor, which are smoother running and lower noise. Due to the existence of instabilities of mains electricity, manufacturers might try to ensure pitch stability by generating its own sinusoidal waveform to power their AC motor. Other methods at achieving stability include using optical sensors on the platter which feed back to the electronics.
Since the 1970s, DC motors have declined in popularity;[1] high end audiophile turntable designs use the synchronous motor, which are smoother running and lower noise. Due to the existence of instabilities of mains electricity, manufacturers might try to ensure pitch stability by generating its own sinusoidal waveform to power their AC motor. Other methods at achieving stability include using optical sensors on the platter which feed back to the electronics.
We will never see vestiges of a decent servo control in a picture of an oscilloscope showing a 3150 Hz tone - IMHO this picture does not add nothing to the debate.
As always, what mainly counts is the implementation. A servo corrects errors - we must accept it. The variation of load in a turntable is also created by LP modulations and it can not be anticipated by any means. However probably it can corrected in a way it does not affect sound quality. It seems some DD turntables manage to do it and it seems that we must rely on our hears (or others ...
) to decide which. All turntables have compromises and their sound quality needs to be analyzed and debated case by case. IMHO generalizations will always show exceptions.
Scientific evidence is defined by the purpose of servo controller and how it works. Of course not all designs are equal and the intrusion one hears or not is relative to other factors but its there.
You can't have a dc motor without a controller which is basically a servo and its audible with belt drives too. In regards to the AF-1 the controller is extremely well masked but its still there, hence some of Steve's comments from his visit. Granted its easier to detect when you have other players with AC motors around and its not a cogging but more like an emotional barrier between the music and the listener, less "Natural" compared to the others there. No company that I know of is making high quality AC Synchronous motors today, servo is something that we may all have to accept and live with...
david
IMHO - The only person who would be bothered by a 0.1hz change of absolute pitch would be the *very* few that are born with perfect pitch. Everyone else would not be able to tell and especially those who are not musicians. I think the absolute speed accuracy metric is thus somewhat moot - don't Rega purportedly "tune" their speed slightly fast - has not hurt their business!
Wow and flutter - now that is a metric that would be noticeable by a lot of people and therefore more critical IMHO. However I contest more noticeable by musicians.
Hi End by definition is a tiny percentage of listeners to begin with and then we are talking about small percentage of products in that already minuscule market. Leaving aside how the numbers are measured and they really mean, I doubt that any of us are susceptible to an overall change change of 0.1 hz and even a bigger no. but to how and how often that adjustment is made. Its like feedback in electronics, you get some great measurements but it doesn't mean that you can't hear the effects of feedback.
david
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