Idlers vs Direct Drive vs Belt Drive

ddk said:

For anyone reading these are mostly generalizations based on 3 Reference quality tables. A Reference product doesn't mean expensive, its one that has few weaknesses, is more or less neutral, correct, musical, capable of delivering enough harmonic and tonal contrast to resemble the real thing and doesn't embellish the sound. Equally important the component is of high enough quality to be used as an acceptable Reference to judge others of its type against it. I consider all 3 as Reference level and equal, acceptable representative of each technology. I'll be specific with the tables to give you better context.

Belt- Micro Seiki RX-1500 with gun metal platter

Idler- Garrard 401 in a custom plinth

DD- Technics SP-1000 mk3

I had SME 3012 arms on the Micro and the Garrard, Technics had the SME 3010. Cartridges were Ortofon SPU & Denon SL1.

Reference level Idlers that I've heard from the Garrard 401 all the way to the EMT 927 share similar qualities. The scale of sound is big, images are solid and PRaT is excellent. Musicality 2nd to none and very "Natural".

In comparison to the Garrard, the RX-1500 while equally musical and natural has a different presentation and PRaT. The sound lacks the body, solidity and scale of the idler but is more nuanced, specially in the lower frequencies. More importantly is almost as "Natural".

The SP-1000 mk3 is a superior built and engineered product than the other two. Sound is very detail but a little cooler (not wrong) than the other two, specially compared to the Garrard. What I can't get past is the Servo Controller unit which is in the DNA of direct drives. I find the continuos adjustment of the Servo Controller very intrusive affecting P & R (Pitch/Pace & Rhythm). Because of the Servo I find that DD table fails in the "Natural" department. I have to add that I find the presence of servo bothersome even in belt drives.

Take my comments as you wish but recognize that we can have different preferences, priorities and sensitivities. Also the degrees that these qualities manifest themselves is system and setup dependent.

david

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Not sure what the Technics SP-1000 Mk3 is doing, however I cannot hear the servo on my Pioneer Exclusive P3 doing anything but play music. the DD bass has a speed, contro, and definaition that is pretty hard to beat on any table. Upper frequency delicacy is a little cooler I would say thou but still all there.

All relative thou.

Purite Audio said:

GPA Monaco here, most accurate TT available. (emphasis added)

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Keith, please! I do not want to have to write you up for an Introspection and Hyperbole Control violation!

Purite Audio said:

Hyperbole is an exaggerated statement, the Monaco is the most accurate ,in terms of rotational speed, confirmed by measurement.
Keith

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I'd be interested to see these measurements that you have confirmed....

ddk said:

The EMT 950 is a very nice sounding machine worth the restoration, suitable motors are a problem today, even finding a quality AC Synchronous motor for belt and idler drives is a near impossible task, no one's manufacturing them. (...)
david

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I find astonishing that we can not find replacements for synchronous motors - a high quality 5 phase stepper motor driven by an adequate driving circuit should provide an uniform and large torque. Or just using the capstan motor of a Revox B77 and its drive card - something I am doing (but still waiting to be finished) for my Forsell flywheel!

Dear Keith,

My Introspection and Hyperbole Control issue is that for you to have confirmed that the Monaco is the most accurate turntable, in terms of rotational speed, available you would have to have measured the rotational speed of most, if not all, of the top turntables available.

You may want to amend the assertion to limit it to the turntables you happened to have measured.

If no rotational speed measurements of other top-tier turntables are available for comparison on what basis do you conclude that "the Monaco is the most accurate, in terms of rotational speed, available"?

Purite Audio said:

Measurements are on the GPA website, I am not sure how many other turntables display their turntables measurements?

Keith

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Can you post a link to the GPA turntable measurements? I know it is quality turntable, but their childish white paper does not do justice to the product.

We know since long thar speed measurements are just one of many aspects of turntable performance. Do you remember the famous Oracle versus Sondek?

Purite Audio said:

Anything that I don't own or deal in is, one might argue, inherently flawed.
Keith.

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Fixt

[video]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yGx5toV92UE[/video]

Purite Audio said:

You could have been my padawan, instead you chose the dark side!
Keith

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You should have done valves

Purite Audio said:

Most of the measurements are included in the 'childish' white paper, I know Alvin has the original data, so if you really are interested I would email him directly.
Turntables, the most important aspect is that they rotate at the correct speed, as the rotational speed defines pitch, not just 33.3 times a minute but every slice of every rotation has to be accurate.
Wow, flutter and rumble, I dont remember the Sondek versus Oracle, they are both belt drives, so one might argue inherently flawed.
Keith.

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Thinks are not so simple as you imply. A rough calculus will immediately show that an eccentricity of 50 microns in an LP will produces a typical variation in speed around .1% between the extreme position's of an LP - it why Nakamichi created the TX 1000 Self-Centering Turntable. Does the GrandPrix take this effect in consideration?

Many factors must be considered in turntable design, always trying to weight them in psycho acoustic terms - and it seems you have not read the GrandPrix white paper, as they correctly warns us against the classic wow, flutter and rumble specifications. As they say "More importantly, there are aspects of fine platter speed control for which there are no industry tests or specifications. " (End of quote). Something that the subjective people always have claimed, but the measurement people do not accept!

Again, I have great respect for GrandPrix products and engineering.

Purite Audio said:

Micro you have rather taken that quote out of context, here is the complete paragraph.
Remember, these readings were made with flutter test tones, not music, so with solo piano, for example,the audibility number may be lower. Also, regardless of the number, any flutter in the playback turntable addsvectorially with the flutter contributed by the lathe, and/or analog master tape. More importantly, there areaspects of fine platter speed control for which there are no industry tests or specifications. By minimizing anyplayback time base instability, improvements in the realism of the acoustic soundstage are significant.
We had a problem measuring wow and flutter using test records because the recordings themselves arefar from zero-wow/flutter specimens. But with wow and flutter we took an approach that was not possible withrumble measurements. We can measure the actual platter speed with extremely high precision using theplatter’s optical encoder disk and a high speed digital counter/timer. By measuring the actual platter speed oversegments of a revolution we can see any acceleration or deceleration, with 100 nanosecond accuracy.
The Monaco doesn't have a mechanism t ocotrect for off centred records, but then neither does any other turntable, apart from the Nakamichi.
Keith.

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Exactly. The full quote only confirms my findings. They think industry standard measurements and techniques were not good enough, they are using other ways of checking speed - that some people may question, as it is an indirect way, not confirmed by others listening tests.

Turntables show the preferences of their creators. IMHO it is is in this sense that this interesting thread created by David must be read. His contributions are interesting and valuable because he has experience with a lot of them and is a good writer. Do you have large experience with the Monaco? I only listened a few times at their distributor, not enough to have an opinion.

And the main question about the importance of such high speed accuracy still holds.

Purite Audio said:

I have used a Monaco for the last few years, before that Technics SP10 , TW AC, Spiral Groove, and quite a few others over the years, I won't be looking for another table.
Keith.

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What are the through bearing noise level measurements on the Monaco, Keith? I have always felt that the sota turntables are the quietest and separate themselves out by this. If you trawl the hifi news measurements archive, there is a relatively decent correlation in this domain with the big SMEs performing the best and for almost all other measurements for that matter. Obviously the Monaco has not been measured by hifi news.

I, too, think the Monaco is a great turntable. That is totally great that you found your ideal turntable. I truly am happy for you!

My issue was simply the broad scope of your comment about the best speed accuracy of the Monaco out of turntables available, rather than limiting the scope of your comment to turntables which you have personally measured, or which someone else has measured and with which you are familiar.

Purite Audio said:

How GPA measured their Monaco is explained in this white paper,
http://www.grandprixaudio.com/sites/default/files/Monaco-Turntable-Whitepaper.pdf


Keith.

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Thanks - unfortunately they claim that they can't measure rumble as it is commonly measured elsewhere. Shame that hifi news haven't measured this table.

Purite Audio said:

How GPA measured their Monaco is explained in this white paper,
http://www.grandprixaudio.com/sites/default/files/Monaco-Turntable-Whitepaper.pdf


Keith.

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Thank you for providing that link, Keith. Have you ever measured the speed of your Monaco with a Sutherland TimeLine strobe device?

I see the speed accuracy is quoted in the Grand Prix Audio paper as within 0.002%. That is superb. Unfortunately, HiFi News has not independently tested this table. They have tested some others, including these two belt drive tables, the SME 30/12 and TechDas AF2. They also include Wow and Flutter and rumble through bearing measurements. I think these two tables are the best measuring tables that this publication has ever tested. Here they are:


SME 30-12 / AF2
Speed: 0.003% / 0.005%
Wow: 0.01% / 0.01%
Flutter: 0.02% / 0.02%
Rumble: -76.9dB / -74dB


Furthermore, according to the GPA paper, the Monaco has an adjustable speed increment of .2%. The SME has an adjustable speed increment of .01%. This level of adjustability represents a difference of 0.1Hz. The SME has considerably finer speed adjustability.

Measurements are great, but in the end, I wonder if these tiny differences in speed accuracy are even audible? I have seen if I could hear that 0.1Hz change of pitch, and I can not. Others may be able to.

More important than the slight differences in specifications of well measuring turntables is how they actually sound. For this, I appreciate David's brief summaries in his OP. I have not had the pleasure or experience of directly comparing the sounds of different drive type tables in my own system. Nor have I done any experiments to determine how one turntable using the same arm, cartridge and cable, in the same system sounds different from another table, except once. I did compare the SME Model 10 to the Model 30/12 under controlled conditions. It was most educational. An audio buddy has a refurbished Technics SP10 Mk3 with SME V12 arm and AirTight Supreme cartridge, so I am hoping to someday be able to directly compare that table to my 30/12. It would be very interesting.

David, thank you for starting this thread. I hope it develops into a good discussion describing the advantages, disadvantages, and sonic differences between various drive types.

Purite Audio said:

Peter one doesn't actually adjust the Monaco, the adjustment is there purely to correct older or poorly pressed vinyl .
Keith.

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That's interesting. How does one know if the speed of an old or poorly pressed LP causes a speed issue, and how is the speed measured after adjustment for accuracy? Is there a digital readout of some kind like on the Kronos or the old Japanese DD tables?

I'm sorry, perhaps I am turning this into a discussion of the Monaco turntable at the expense of others. If so, we could take this up in a thread devoted to that particular table. Fellow member, Spiritofmusic, is also quite interested in the Monaco. I'll search the forum for more information.