"Natural" Sound

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Ron Resnick

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I reported that I found that Steve's system playing vinyl sounded very "natural." As our self-designated hyperbole and introspection control policeman am I guilty of hyperbole when I describe a system's sound as "natural"?

What do we mean by "natural" when we say an audio system sounds "natural"? Does natural have any inherent, determinate, generally accepted meaning? Or when we use the word "natural" are we, as usual, simply expressing our subject preference for smooth, warmish and non-fatiguing sound as opposed to overly detailed and analytical sound?

Doesn't describing reproduced music as "natural" simply beg the question "natural as compared to what?" and circle us back to the fundamental question of the hobby: are we seeking to recreate an original musical event or are we seeking to recover with as little adulteration as possible what is on the master tape?

How do we know if something sounds natural? And how do we know if one type of sound is more natural than another type of sound?

Is "natural" a sonic attribute on a continuum which begins on one end at "completely unnatural" and ends on the other at "completely natural"? How can sound become more natural?

So does "natural" mean anything clear and knowable, or is it simply another word we use to describe something completely subjective and which is not susceptible of any ubiquitous understanding?
 
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Al M.

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Good question, Ron, and important to discuss.

In my view the term 'natural' can only be ascribed in reference to unamplified live music. A system that sounds natural can reproduce the sound of unamplified live music.

Yet we must not forget that this sound does have a rather wide range, depending on acoustics, distance from instruments, the way they are played etc.

Smooth, warmish and non-fatiguing sound as opposed to detailed and analytical sound? That again depends on acoustics etc. And there is not necessarily opposition here. Live music can sound smooth and warm, but it can also be very detailed at the same time (in fact, it mostly is the latter, regardless if 'warm' or less warm sounding). On the other hand, live music can also sound with an edge, it can even sound 'hard' or 'distorted'. For example, sit close to a brass section, with your eyes closed so as to suppress expectation bias, and just concentrate on the sound. It may sound hard and distorted indeed (I had a discussion with a representative from Linn, and he said that the air pressure within a trumpet is so high that it 'shreds' the sound waves). Natural therefore does not always mean pleasant and inoffensive either. Yet in a smooth sounding venue even brass can sound very smooth, especially when listened to from a distance.

A natural sounding system should be able to reproduce all those ranges of sounds, depending on the recording, and to some extent trick the listener into believing that s/he listens to real live music. If a system always sounds warm, smooth, pleasant and inoffensive that may compromise the idea of natural sound, if it never does sound that way there may be something wrong as well.
 
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Al M.

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So does "natural" mean anything clear and knowable, or is it simply another word we use to describe something completely subjective and which is not susceptible of any ubiquitous understanding?

Given what I outlined above, I would say it does mean something clear and knowable, but 'ubiquitous understanding' is debatable, if that means just one particular thing. As I said, live sound of unamplified music, the reference for 'natural', comes in a rather wide range of timbres, and where your perception is along that range will also depend on your personal experiences, your preferred seat in the concert hall, the acoustics of your favorite concert venue etc. So there is an element of subjectivity in it, but not in the sense of 'anything goes'.
 

Al M.

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Doesn't describing reproduced music as "natural" simply beg the question "natural as compared to what?" and circle us back to the fundamental question of the hobby: are we seeking to recreate an original musical event or are we seeking to recover with as little adulteration as possible what is on the master tape?

Seeking to recover with as little adulteration as possible what is on the master tape means accuracy. Yet accurate and natural are not the same thing. If the master tape does not sound natural, but the system reproduces it accurately, the system will also not sound natural on that recording. And it shouldn't!
 

Ron Resnick

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Al, I think your answers are excellent. I give you an "A"! :)
 

Al M.

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Al, I think your answers are excellent. I give you an "A"! :)

Thank you, Ron. :)

As far as general sound of a system goes, I'd say 'neutral' means a somewhat warm base color, because unamplified live music often, yet not always, has warm tones. If a system always sounds 'cold' and 'analytical' this is a rather questionable asset. On the other hand, a system must be able to sound 'cold' on certain recordings; if it cannot, it strays too far from 'neutral' as well.

As for 'smooth', that is quite debatable. Certain live music often sounds rather smooth, e.g. string quartets (yet these can also sometimes sound with a 'edge', depending on the music). Yet hard sounds are also often found, such as with brass in many instances. In which direction the system leans, towards a 'smoother', 'softer', or towards a 'harder' presentation, is perhaps more a matter of preference than of 'absolute truth'.

Yet if every string quartet recording sounds 'hard', something seems wrong with the system at hand. In a similar manner, if all brass sounds 'smooth' it does not seem quite right either.
 

Rodney Gold

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The first thing to check is the room sonics , this is vital
Speak in the room and listen to your voice..clap hands etc you will soon hear if the room is natural or too dead or too lively
If it is natural , then it will reproduce whatever the music system is playing as natural and as umnmangled as it can get without adding anything.

The rest is up to the system and the recording and your preferences.
 

bonzo75

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Accurate doesn't mean natural. Natural means it should sound as it does at live acoustic concerts. Best thing to do is to shut off your system for 6 months, frequent live classical, and reset your reference sound. If you listen to your own system every day, the reference gets reset everyday, possibly further and further away from natural. Analog in some cases is colored, but can be natural. Same with valves.
 

FrantzM

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I reported that I found that Steve's system playing vinyl sounded very "natural." As our self-designated hyperbole and introspection control policeman am I guilty of hyperbole when I describe a system's sound as "natural"?

What do we mean by "natural" when we say an audio system sounds "natural"? Does natural have any inherent, determinate, generally accepted meaning? Or when we use the word "natural" are we, as usual, simply expressing our subject preference for smooth, warmish and non-fatiguing sound as opposed to detailed and analytical sound?

Doesn't describing reproduced music as "natural" simply beg the question "natural as compared to what?" and circle us back to the fundamental question of the hobby: are we seeking to recreate an original musical event or are we seeking to recover with as little adulteration as possible what is on the master tape?

How do we know if something sounds natural? And how do we know if one type of sound is more natural than another type of sound?

Is "natural" a sonic attribute on a continuum which begins on one end at "completely unnatural" and ends on the other at "completely natural"? How can sound become more natural?

So does "natural" mean anything clear and knowable, or is it simply another word we use to describe something completely subjective and which is not susceptible of any ubiquitous understanding?

At the risk of offending my fellow audiophiles.. It is one more impossible to clearly define term to add to the ever-expending audiophile vocabulory ... The vast difference in our preferences renders it not too far from meaningless IMHO. What is "natural" for one person with a Magico-SS-digital based system would be completely different from what is "natural" from another Sonus-Faber-Tube-Vinyl ... It is a matter of taste and frankly of mood. Granted the best systems can provide for any taste, a good simulacrum of real music playing in a real space on some recordings .. whether'er tube, SS, analog or digital based but ...

In all fairness I understand the difficulty to convey sonics attribute and perceptions into words; "natural" could be a way to describe a non-fatiguing kind sound for , again some individuals. The emphasis is on "some"... Some people would find it "natural" and some would not ...

Regardless I would think it is a better way to describe the sound of a system than "Organic" :)
 

bonzo75

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At the risk of offending my fellow audiophiles.. It is one more impossible to clearly define term to add to the ever-expending audiophile vocabulory ... The vast difference in our preferences renders it not too far from meaningless IMHO. What is "natural" for one person with a Magico-SS-digital based system would be completely different from what is "natural" from another Sonus-Faber-Tube-Vinyl ... It is a matter of taste and frankly of mood. Granted the best systems can provide for any taste, a good simulacrum of real music playing in a real space on some recordings .. whether'er tube, SS, analog or digital based but ...

In all fairness I understand the difficulty to convey sonics attribute and perceptions into words; "natural" could be a way to describe a non-fatiguing kind sound for , again some individuals. The emphasis is on "some"... Some people would find it "natural" and some would not ...

Regardless I would think it is a better way to describe the sound of a system than "Organic" :)

No, Natural is what is played in live concert halls. Nothing to do with preference. Or Sonus Faber or Magico
 
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microstrip

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Good question, Ron, and important to discuss.

In my view the term 'natural' can only be ascribed in reference to unamplified live music. A system that sounds natural can reproduce the sound of unamplified live music.

Yet we must not forget that this sound does have a rather wide range, depending on acoustics, distance from instruments, the way they are played etc.

Smooth, warmish and non-fatiguing sound as opposed to detailed and analytical sound? That again depends on acoustics etc. And there is not necessarily opposition here. Live music can sound smooth and warm, but it can also be very detailed at the same time (in fact, it mostly is the latter, regardless if 'warm' or less warm sounding). On the other hand, live music can also sound with an edge, it can even sound 'hard' or 'distorted'. For example, sit close to a brass section, with your eyes closed so as to suppress expectation bias, and just concentrate on the sound. It may sound hard and distorted indeed (I had a discussion with a representative from Linn, and he said that the air pressure within a trumpet is so high that it 'shreds' the sound waves). Natural therefore does not always mean pleasant and inoffensive either. Yet in a smooth sounding venue even brass can sound very smooth, especially when listened to from a distance.

A natural sounding system should be able to reproduce all those ranges of sounds, depending on the recording, and to some extent trick the listener into believing that s/he listens to real live music. If a system always sounds warm, smooth, pleasant and inoffensive that may compromise the idea of natural sound, if it never does sound that way there may be something wrong as well.

Al. M,

I am sure you will appreciate the words of Anthony H. Cordesman in his TAS writings about the Quad 2905

" Go to any live concert of chamber music, listen to any other music emphasizing strings and woodwinds, listen carefully to massed strings, pay close attention to soprano voice, or simply listen to someone actually play a grand piano. Compare what you hear to far too many recordings played through some of today’s best and most accurate equipment.

If you can’t hear the same types of musical detail when you stand only 10 feet away from a live musician, and if you can’t the same balance of “highs” when you listen to live music, you should not hear them on recordings. Here, I may disagree with many of my colleagues who listen primarily to popular music. With classical music, the issue is not whether you can hear something new – or more “detail” – it is whether you can hear what is musically natural and musically relevant. A Strad should sound exactly like a Strad.3 A Soprano’s voice should not emphasize breathing sounds and harden. A Steinway or Bosendorfer should sound like a grand piano, and never have hints of sounding like slightly off tune upright. A loud flute should be a source of pleasure, not irritation, and so the upper register of the clarinet. Full text at http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/back-to-musical-realism-the-quad-system-part-1/


Many authors have tackled this subject, most of the time in reviews about components that are able to sound natural. And yes, if you google "natural sound" and good reviewers names, most of the time you will find examples in classical music.

IMHO it is a mistake to try to define precisely the meaning of some subjective terms in a short post, as they do not have an intrinsic exact meaning. There is no fast way to enter the "natural sound" culture - except perhaps experiencing it in a revelatory system, as it happened to Steve. You have to read a lot and built your own perception of the words, looking for some convergence with others. Some people can not stand this type of imprecise audiophile language and love denigrating it. It is their wright and IMHO the loss is theirs and ours - it will prevent them from participating in some of the best debates high-end can offer us.
 

Al M.

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Al. M,

I am sure you will appreciate the words of Anthony H. Cordesman in his TAS writings about the Quad 2905

" Go to any live concert of chamber music, listen to any other music emphasizing strings and woodwinds, listen carefully to massed strings, pay close attention to soprano voice, or simply listen to someone actually play a grand piano. Compare what you hear to far too many recordings played through some of today’s best and most accurate equipment.

If you can’t hear the same types of musical detail when you stand only 10 feet away from a live musician, and if you can’t the same balance of “highs” when you listen to live music, you should not hear them on recordings. Here, I may disagree with many of my colleagues who listen primarily to popular music. With classical music, the issue is not whether you can hear something new – or more “detail” – it is whether you can hear what is musically natural and musically relevant. A Strad should sound exactly like a Strad.3 A Soprano’s voice should not emphasize breathing sounds and harden. A Steinway or Bosendorfer should sound like a grand piano, and never have hints of sounding like slightly off tune upright. A loud flute should be a source of pleasure, not irritation, and so the upper register of the clarinet. Full text at http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/back-to-musical-realism-the-quad-system-part-1/


Many authors have tackled this subject, most of the time in reviews about components that are able to sound natural. And yes, if you google "natural sound" and good reviewers names, most of the time you will find examples in classical music.

IMHO it is a mistake to try to define precisely the meaning of some subjective terms in a short post, as they do not have an intrinsic exact meaning. There is no fast way to enter the "natural sound" culture - except perhaps experiencing it in a revelatory system, as it happened to Steve. You have to read a lot and built your own perception of the words, looking for some convergence with others. Some people can not stand this type of imprecise audiophile language and love denigrating it. It is their wright and IMHO the loss is theirs and ours - it will prevent them from participating in some of the best debates high-end can offer us.

Thank you, Microstrip, for this post. I agree.
 

FrantzM

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No, Natural is what is played in live concert halls. Nothing to do with preference. Or Sonus Faber or Magico

Is it what any of us get at home? No!

We get a reproduction to which we assign a qualitative... which has to do with our preferences .. it is a subjective evaluation.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Seeking to recover with as little adulteration as possible what is on the master tape means accuracy. Yet accurate and natural are not the same thing. If the master tape does not sound natural, but the system reproduces it accurately, the system will also not sound natural on that recording. And it shouldn't!

This. If you have low distortion and a reasonably linear system, your system will be as "natural" as the recording. No more, no less. It's the range of "reasonably linear" that defines this hobby, but the impact of the recording is way ahead of all our system choices and subjective judgements. Everything else is sweating the small stuff. I'm sure Steve's system is excellent. I'm also sure I have some recordings here that would make if sound unnatural.

Tim
 

caesar

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I reported that I found that Steve's system playing vinyl sounded very "natural." As our self-designated hyperbole and introspection control policeman am I guilty of hyperbole when I describe a system's sound as "natural"?

What do we mean by "natural" when we say an audio system sounds "natural"? Does natural have any inherent, determinate, generally accepted meaning? Or when we use the word "natural" are we, as usual, simply expressing our subject preference for smooth, warmish and non-fatiguing sound as opposed to detailed and analytical sound?

Doesn't describing reproduced music as "natural" simply beg the question "natural as compared to what?" and circle us back to the fundamental question of the hobby: are we seeking to recreate an original musical event or are we seeking to recover with as little adulteration as possible what is on the master tape?

How do we know if something sounds natural? And how do we know if one type of sound is more natural than another type of sound?

Is "natural" a sonic attribute on a continuum which begins on one end at "completely unnatural" and ends on the other at "completely natural"? How can sound become more natural?

So does "natural" mean anything clear and knowable, or is it simply another word we use to describe something completely subjective and which is not susceptible of any ubiquitous understanding?

Gentlemen,

We are talking about Subjectivity here. The musician Frank Zappa has been quoted to say that "writing about music is like dancing about architecture". And this is what we are dealing with here also.

As an example, take the experience of flashing blue and red lights of a police car to an alien. If the alien doesn’t’ have the visual plumbing capability in his brain to experience what we experience when light of certain wavelengths hit our retina, it’s an exercise in futility to try to explain to him what these flashing lights are all about. The point is that if people don’t share the same experience, or can't relate it to something they have experienced, it is really hard or even impossible to describe it. That’s why reviews that compare gear using specific music examples are valuable, because they may just hit on a product that others have experienced.


Now if you were to take 3 amigos – Fremer and his Wilsons, Valin and his Magicos, and HP with his NOLAs and Scaenas to attend some live concerts together, and then listen to gear on each other’s systems side by side, then you could possibly start to use language to distill and hammer out similarities/ differences in sophisticated and multidimensional experiences such as how music makes you feel.

Otherwise, when we experience a system, we distill this complexity into a word “natural”, argue about it, and just move on frustrated.
 

Steve Williams

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Caesar and Frantz.

Not sure that I completely agree with either of you. My epiphany came several months ago when I made a pilgrimage to Cedar City Utah and heard David's system. I have never heard anything more realistic than when I heard that sound. It was mesmerizing, ethereal and seductive beyond anything I have ever heard in over 50 years in this hobby. I disagree that "natural sound" is speaker specific Frantz but I do believe that certain speakers and systems given the right music will create that natural sound that Ron was trying to define. I also believe that lack of coloration gets you there much easier than signal with coloration
 

microstrip

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Quoted from the The Audio Adventure, February 1996, Vol. 3, Issue 2 review of the Vivaldi speaker, designed by Siegfried Linkwitz

A Speaker For All Seasons
Audio Artistry And The Vivaldi Loudspeaker
By Adam Walinsky
(...)

What Is Accuracy?
All this points us toward the heart of the mystery: what is it that a system is supposed to do? For decades we have assumed that a high-end system is supposed to reproduce with maximum accuracy - what? If the aim is to reproduce the original sound, the absolute sound, then how are we to compensate for the multitude of changes made in recordings by the thousands of mostly faceless engineers who have made or edited our recordings over the last 50 years? These technicians have introduced massive distortions, intended to make up for the limitations of the recording and reproducing process, as those were perceived at the time. Compensating for those distortions would require a complex and comprehensive set of sound-shaping circuitry and controls (not to mention an excellent trained ear): exactly what the high end has rejected as a spurious corruption.
Even with the most modern recordings, using the most sophisticated technical means, there are serious questions. Recording engineers - they are after all engineers - devote enormous effort to capturing the frequency spectrum flat from 20Hz to 20kHz. But I suspect that the great concert halls (at least midway in the orchestra and back) do not bring sound to our ears with that flatness. Especially they muffle the more discordant squeaks and brays, while somehow letting the music come through with seemingly effortless clarity. Composers (at least before the mid-Twentieth century) wrote not for recording but for the concert hall. They were writing with a direct ear to popular opinion and financial success, and we have to assume that their choice of voicings and instrumentation was made in consideration of how the music would sound to its listeners - that is, in the hall, church or chamber. Most recordings give it to us with a flat balance that I believe is much brighter and sharper than the composers intended us to hear.
Even assuming recording by extremely sensitive and musical engineers, with which we are blessed remarkably often, audiophiles have left virtually unaddressed the full extension of Ivor Tiefenbrun's first-things-first principle: that everything depends on the microphone. In the many hundreds of equipment reviews that have appeared in the absolute sound and Stereophile, not to mention Stereo Review and High Fidelity before them, how many have been of professional recording microphones? How much critical analysis has there been of their flaws and quirks, to push their designers to improvement? More important than reviews are the imperatives of the marketplace. Even high-end speakers may sell in the thousands, amplifiers and disc players in the tens of thousands. But professional microphones can hope to sell at best in the hundreds. There are not the same revenue possibilities to attract and pay for the same engineering investment. Moreover, microphones, like all transducers, are art as much as science, and the electrical engineers who have dominated American audio design seem more comfortable with science than with art. That is why we have a choice of hundreds of amplifiers, why new digital converters appear every month, and why (even in the heyday of analogue) we had a relative paucity of phono cartridges, most of them from Japan and Europe.
So while we all consume their output, microphones are entirely a professional product. And the audiophile community just eats whatever it is given, without analysis or comment.
With so little control over the start of the process, and with recordings subject to so many distortions deliberate and inadvertent, what does it mean to say that our systems are "accurate?" Of course one system, or one component, can be a more accurate reproducer than another. But it is at least arguable that accuracy of signal reproduction may not be the right criterion. I am reasonably certain it is not the only one.

The System As Music Maker
Let us think for the moment of our systems not as electro-mechanical devices, but as musical instruments. This is not farfetched. Consider a piano transcription of a symphony. We do not play these, but four-hands versions were widely available for amateur music-making in the days before recordings, when pianos and playing them were features of the enlightened middle-class home. Or consider Bach's Musical Offering, which can be played on virtually any instruments. The different versions will sound very different, but they are the same composition, and they convey the same musical emotions. This is equally true of a comparison between the usual modern Messiah, even a small one like Davis', and the lovely original instrument version of McGegan (HMU 907050.52): they sound very different, they differ in emotional detail, they have a different musical impact. Yet the reverence and devotion are the same. And if your eyes don't at least glisten at "He shall feed His flock" or "For unto us a child is born" on either version, get a home theater and watch Arnold movies instead.
By this token, we might think of our systems not as making the vain attempt to reproduce the absolute sound of the real instruments in a real hall, but rather as producing a different, yet still valid presentation of the same underlying musical composition.
This would seem to be a standard of unabashed subjectivity. Yet any judgment of music is inherently subjective. This is not to say that everyone's opinion is entitled to equal weight, much less that no comparative judgments are possible. The authority of a Tovey is very different from that of a Leonard Bernstein or Charles Rosen, yet each of these great performer-analysts is recognizably profound and far above common opinion. There is no "objective" standard by which we can rank Mozart ahead of Spohr, or Beethoven above Rossini, but their contemporaries and all who have followed have been able to tell the difference.
Judging audio components and systems as musical instruments would require us to thoughtfully consider what systems should sound like. Obviously they should sound the way music sounds in its natural state. But we don't have systems that really do that. And the ways to approach "natural" sound will cause some debate. I, like most of us, keep reaching for more detail, more resolution; yet I also know that any system that sounds sharper than the concert hall, that loses the sonorous richness of reality - no matter how accurately it reproduces the signal it is fed - is not musical, and is inferior to a system that produces, even through distortion of the signal, a more mellifluous and balanced sound.

(...)
 

amirm

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It is easy to examine audiophile terms to see if they have value. If we subjected 10 audiophiles to the same system that was say is "natural," would the majority of them describe it the same? I would say no. It is not a quantitative term. The same word when used in some supplement you take has a very specific meaning, meaning it is not man-made. But here, it loses its specificity and just conveys some emotion the person had. It is not a descriptor of system performance.

Compare that to, "the bass was boomy." We may not be able to understand how boomy but we immediately get a specific sense of what the person is saying about the system. Or "the highs were very bright." We get that too. Even terms like "more air around instruments" can be quantitative and far more than "natural."

When I read your review of Steve's system, the only walk away point for me was that you had a great experience there. Please don't hit me :), but I didn't get any other specific impression of what was heard. The main thing I noted there were specific things like what album you had used to listen there. That was specific and actionable. If we want our assessments to be transportable beyond something fun to read, we need to think in those specific terms.

BTW, kudos to you for the self examination and creating this thread. Can't reward you enough point for doing this.
 

Rodney Gold

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All that goodness gets mangled by the room.. and badly too .. you need to undo that damage to hear anything natural or neutral or accurate.
 
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