What's the best DAC digital interface possible?

Blizzard

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Hi Guys,


I've posted on a few other threads a few of my thoughts on DAC interfaces. This topic has been of particular interest to me over the last year. I have extensively researched most known protocols. I've learn't a lot along this journey. I used to think that USB was the holy grail. But to my surprise, it can actually one of the worst. As of today, this is how I have it figured from best to worst of the most common protocols. Yes I know, how each protocol is implemented is extremely important. But what I'm referring to is if cost was no object, and the finest implementations of each protocol were built.

1: Internal SD card interface.
2: Internal Ethernet renderer
3: I2S/DSD over LVDS or CMOS over short distances.
4: AES/EBU
5: Coaxial SPDIF
6: USB
7: Toslink

I have also heard ST fibre like Bel Canto uses can also be great. But I don't know enough about it now to include on the list.

If anyone agrees or disagrees with my findings, please chime in. Then we can start diving into details of each protocol.

Thanks,
Blizzard.
 

Bruce B

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The best I have used in the studio, in no particular order:

1. Ethernet - Ravenna/Dante
2. MADI/AES 10 - Multi-channel Audio Digital Interface via either ST/SC optical or BNC Coax
3. AES/EBU via XLR for PCM. Years ago I believe dCS tried to do it for DSD and it never worked for me.
 

Blizzard

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The best I have used in the studio, in no particular order:

1. Ethernet - Ravenna/Dante
2. MADI/AES 10 - Multi-channel Audio Digital Interface via either ST/SC optical or BNC Coax
3. AES/EBU for PCM. Years ago I believe dCS tried to do it for DSD and it never worked for me.

I agree with Ravenna being #1 for interfacing to external sources. But I have to give a 1+ to an SD card interface such as in the Resonessence Mirus. The reason being, there's absolutely no cables in the system. The SD card reader is 1/4" from the FPGA, and sends a pure data stream into the FPGA RAM, which is synchronously clocked to the DAC master. Resonessence also came up with a slick algorithm for streaming the data smoothly from the SD card, instead of in burst's like a computer CPU does. Another thing is the decoding process for compressed PCM like FLAC, is done in a superior fashion in the FPGA, than PC based media players.

With Ravenna the implementation is similar, only the cabling does have an influence on the sound. But I will have some Ravenna interface boards in my possession soon that I'm going to run through the paces. I'm going to interface them directly into the I2S HDMI port on the back of the Mirus and compare head to head with the SD card. I'm also going to play around with fibre Ethernet isolation. With a very cleanly powered low noise fibre transceiver, It may have the potential to match the SD card.

Madi/AES 10 I haven't tried, but looks to me like it can be great with proper implementation.

DSD can be done over AES/EBU via DoP, but you can't beat sending DSD natively. Native DSD streaming takes 1 extra step out of the equation on both the sending and receiving ends, and also uses less bandwidth.
 

Blizzard

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Haven't tried the SD card on my Invicta yet. I must do that!

No way you have an Invicta and haven't tried the SD card???!!! Well you'll be in for a pleasant surprise. Do you have a standard Invicta, or the Mirus?

Another revelation for me with my Mirus was when I upgraded the master clock. It made a bit of difference via USB, but with the SD card, WOW!. This is because when the SD card is used, the master clock is the ONLY clock in the picture. There's also an extremely low amount of jitter added into the system with everything being so close and direct on the PCB. So when a lower jitter clock is used, you really hear it!

Here's a pic of part of the Invicta/Mirus board. The SD card reader is the shiny silver box. The FPGA (which is the brain box for the DAC) is the Spartan chip in the middle. The rectangular box is the RAM for the FPGA. The square box under the FPGA is the USB receiver chip. And the small 5x7mm clock under it is the USB clock.

View attachment 22807
 
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Whatmore

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I have the standard Invicta.
All my music is ALAC and the SD option does not accept this. I haven't been bothered converting anything to try but given your enthusiasm I will do so :)
 

Bruce B

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The only SD card I have in my system is on the Tascam DA-3000. I do not know how it is implemented, but it's pretty slick for sure!
 

Blizzard

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I have the standard Invicta.
All my music is ALAC and the SD option does not accept this. I haven't been bothered converting anything to try but given your enthusiasm I will do so :)


Don't you have any DSD? Give it a try with some 24/192 PCM. Convert to FLAC.
 

Blizzard

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The only SD card I have in my system is on the Tascam DA-3000. I do not know how it is implemented, but it's pretty slick for sure!

Awesome!
 

c1ferrari

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DSD can be done over AES/EBU via DoP, but you can't beat sending DSD natively. Native DSD streaming takes 1 extra step out of the equation on both the sending and receiving ends, and also uses less bandwidth.

Would you mind elaborating about native DSD streaming and how you would prefer it implemented :confused:
Thanks. :cool:
 

Blizzard

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Here's an overview of the Invicta/Mirus with the lid off. The boards on the bottom right with the DAC chips on them simply plug in. On the regular Invicta, there's a single board with the 8 channels of the ESS 9018 paralleled into 2 channels and then straight out the analog outs. A second board is stacked to run the headphone section. In the Mirus, 2 boards are stacked and each chip is run in monoblock mode for the best performance possible from the chip. 135db S/N ratio! Among other improvements. However they ditch the headphone output on the Mirus to make room and lower noise. Awesome part about the modular design is, when ESS comes out with their next gen chip, the boards can simply be swapped out, a new FPGA flash applied via the SD card, and voila, new DAC!

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Blizzard

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Would you mind elaborating about native DSD streaming and how you would prefer it implemented :confused:
Thanks. :cool:

DoP was created as a method to send DSD over standard PCM hardware easily. A lot of it was to get around limitations with Apple's core audio to send DSD. What it does is encodes the DSD stream to PCM on the sending end, and decodes it back to DSD on the receiving end. Although it is a lossless process, it takes extra overhead on both the sending and receiving ends, as well as higher bandwidth is used up in the transmission protocol. Native sends the DSD direct and avoids the encoding/decoding process. So native is a better way to do things. With most DAC USB interfaces, Windows and ASIO is required for native DSD streaming, however with the latest Xmos chips and the right firmware, native is now an option for Mac and Linux.

You can read more about DoP here:

http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard
 
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Blizzard

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Here's the clock I updated in my Mirus. The 10Hz phase noise is 8Db better than the stock one it replaced. Enough to easily hear the difference.

Here's the plots of the original 950 and the new 957. However I'll also attach the plot of the actual clocks themselves that are going in a DAC I'm having built.

These clocks can be made to work in the Mirus as well, but a large minimum order is required, and the size is way smaller so it would need to be soldered to an adapter first.

But massively better performance than the Crystek 957.

View attachment 22809 View attachment 22810 View attachment 22811 View attachment 22812
 
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Blizzard

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Here's an excellent description by Dustin Forman of ESS and Resonessence on the Invicta/Mirus SD card and the pitfalls of USB:

"We all like digital music because information stored in digital form is, in principle, incorruptible and preserved. The first forays into digital music were compromised by the need to compress the data: the lowest sample rate was used and even then the data files were too large to store conveniently. Compression was invented (MP3) to make long play-lists viable on early hardware. Thankfully, as technology has moved on, lossy compression is no longer needed and emerging standards are all loss-less. All manner of digital sources can now deliver digital music to a player: USB is popular, WiFi is often mentioned, and of course SD cards can be used as well.

To the casual listener the digital data is just another source of music: bit-perfect digital data from any source is identical, whether it be delivered by USB or on an SD card. What matters is the quality and care with which that digital data was captured at the studio, because, we generally assume, once captured into the digital domain it is now inviolate and available for reproduction anywhere, hence the digital revolution that surrounds us.

To reproduce the quality captured by the digital encoding at the studio is the challenge for Resonessence and other high-end Audio DAC manufacturers. To produce the very best sound quality requires attention to a number of aspects that are well known and some that are less well-known. For example, we learn from the comments of experienced audiophiles that the listening experience can differ in detail depending on where the digital data is originating (USB, Memory stick, CD etc).

This is a surprise, why do different digital music sources sound different? Is there something about the audio engineering in the DAC that can explain this? What do we need to attend to in the DAC design to minimize unexpected issues such as this?

The first consideration is that the audio device must be the timing master – we cannot rely on the imprecise timing that a typical computer provides – that is far inferior to the audio requirement. Audiophiles are well aware of the problems of jitter and good clock management. WiFi is an even bigger challenge because data flow within a typical radio environment is exceptionally unpredictable and prone to drop-out.

At the lowest level, low jitter and precise timing means that the audio clock has to be the “master clock” to the degree that even a phase locked loop cannot achieve. [Some solutions attempt to lock the average rate of the audio clock with a phase locked loop – but this is inferior to the extreme high “Q” that a master crystal audio oscillator can achieve]. Consequently, for the highest quality audio reproduction a low phase noise oscillator defines the master clock at the audio reproduction site (that is, within the DAC system and in a managed noise environment). Well-known buffering and flow control devices then surround this audio subsystem and ensure that data is clocked in and out of the interface as the audio subsystem needs it.

In principle this solution (audio master clock, sophisticated flow control to the digital transport electronics) is all we need – we are done with the design. However, experience teaches otherwise. Audiophiles can perceive a difference between data source such as USB and SD card – how can this be since digital data is just digital data isn’t it? How can there be any distinction between data that has arrived over the USB link as opposed to data that has been extracted from the SD card since they are each a bit-perfect copy of the other?

There can be differences due to what engineers and scientists call second or sometimes “higher order” effects. We will describe one of them in order to explain what these can be, and we will simply state that the Invicta has been designed to mitigate this and other similar effects.

Consider the example of USB audio. All credible systems have solved the problem of flow control and placed the master clock at the DAC (asynchronous USB and the Audio USB standards etc) and commonly, to lessen the load on the USB host, a buffer memory of significant depth is present in the signal path to allow for unpredictable data delays. Two processes (at least, maybe more) are then running in the DAC: the first is the high precision clock and data flow to the DAC element itself to minimize phase noise, the second is a supervisory asynchronous process that is watching the buffer memory status and feeding back to the USB host to maintain long term synchronization. And, that surprisingly, is the source of a second order problem that evidence suggests may explain why one data source differs from another.

That asynchronous process of flow control is occurring with frequency characteristics right in the middle of the audio band: the flow control process kicks in and out in the millisecond timescale, and as a result of this, data is flowing in bursts that have audio band frequency products. To make the situation worse, the USB driver itself is a low impedance buffer sucking pulses of charge from the power supply over many frequencies, but with a strong audio band component. The buffer memory load and unload is again a current drain, more so if the memory is larger, and again it has audio frequency elements in it. All this means that the power supply is stressed: there will be a small (if the design is done right) modulation of the power proportional to the USB flow control. This modulation breaks into the audio stream primarily through clock phase modulation (which does not degrade DNR and does not degrade THD and so cannot be seen in the specifications, but there is no doubt at all that it is audible).

All high end manufacturers have a guideline: the more power supplies the better – precisely to mitigate effects such as these. A good DAC design will have a completely separate power supply for the USB interface to minimize this effect. However, there is next step after multiple supplies and that is galvanic isolation. Galvanic isolation truly separates the power supplies because the use of multiple power supplies alone does not isolate the ground connection. Galvanic isolation as used in the Invicta does truly isolate the grounds as well as the power. With galvanic isolation the audio system ground is not disturbed at all by the USB flow control artifact and the phase noise modulation with power supply variation is at the very minimum. [It is still not zero because there are other effects that even couple between galvanically isolated domains, but it is the very lowest achievable.]

Contrast the difficulty of achieving the absolute maximum performance in the presence of these second order effects with the USB and SD Card. In the USB interface the flow control is affected by the USB host: its performance will change the detailed operation of the flow control process in the audio DAC. The basic problem is that the USB is a serial data source and marshalling (or “serializing”) of the data into the USB “pipe” is a necessity. However in the SD Card the data is randomly accessed at a far higher rate that in the USB (in a few nano-seconds) and in any order that the controller cares to ask for it. In this case then the frequency domain characteristics of the data access process are under our control: we can ensure that access is “even” and does not exhibit a frequency characteristic in the audio band. But even more than this, the SD Card does not have a line capacitance to charge and discharge (the USB does: the wavefront propagating in the controlled environment of the cable presents a significant load to the driver). The charge disturbances are lower to begin with before we add our “evening out” procedure when using the SD Card source.

We should stress that these are indeed second order effects, far below the level of attention typically applied to a lower-cost consumer product.

Finally, there are other second order effects. You may rightly guess that the display has a similar artifact: a characteristic current draw that can be in the audio band if care is not applied and so forth. All that we can find are taken care of in the Invicta."




And here's some info on how it sends data and decodes Flac from the SD card:

"The FLAC is decoded into RAM where it becomes normal lossless PCM data, it then is sent to a FIFO for buffering between the RAM and the DAC. Then it is transmitted to the DAC via I2S interface. All this is done for the lowest jitter. The FLAC file is decoded in chucks in a streaming fashion. This is VERY difference from a regular CPU, where the bursty processing can have audible effects. The FLAC decoder is actually a hybrid hardware decoder and software. We did this so the CPU loading is actually very constant (smooth) during the stream decoding. This is only possible since we did not use a general purpose CPU, but rather made a custom decoder in the FPGA to accomplish this. I think the results speak for themselves. I have not heard of one person claiming they can tell the difference on the INVICTA (MIRUS), where its fairly well accepted that on a computer that is decoding on the fly, audible differences can be perceived."
 
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Groucho

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Here's an excellent description by Dustin Forman of ESS and Resonessence on the Invicta/Mirus SD card and the pitfalls of USB:

I view such quotes through the prism of someone selling me something - and there's nothing wrong with that. I, too, would enjoy spinning basic engineering practice into something that sounds like rocket science.
 

marslo

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Maybe asynchronus usb is still to be improved be it by galvanic isolation, independent PS - battery powered like Aurender usb audio or linear like Lampi usb .
Another interesting connection is ethernet . The new model of Vermeeraudio , successor of Audio Aero , model Two Network will be equipped with custom jitter free connection.
"LAN/RJ 45 Connector for Network Streaming with bit perfect,

jitter free transmission. Data supported up to 32/384 kHz
(PCM/DXD/DSD)"
http://vermeeraudio.com/en/products/30-two-network
 

Blizzard

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I view such quotes through the prism of someone selling me something - and there's nothing wrong with that. I, too, would enjoy spinning basic engineering practice into something that sounds like rocket science.

You can view it that way, but he's just being completely honest. The proof is when you listen to it. Dustin isn't a salesman, he's an engineer. But for those who refuse to believe, there's 5 other interface options on the DAC.
 
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Blizzard

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Maybe asynchronus usb is still to be improved be it by galvanic isolation, independent PS - battery powered like Aurender usb audio or linear like Lampi usb .
Another interesting connection is ethernet . The new model of Vermeeraudio , successor of Audio Aero , model Two Network will be equipped with custom jitter free connection.
"LAN/RJ 45 Connector for Network Streaming with bit perfect,

jitter free transmission. Data supported up to 32/384 kHz
(PCM/DXD/DSD)"
http://vermeeraudio.com/en/products/30-two-network

You are right about internal Ethernet renderers being superior. This is why they are #2 on my list, and #1 for interfacing to External data sources/GUI's. The best I know of in this department is Merging's implementation of Ravenna.
 
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Blizzard

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I'd like to explain why internal Ethernet renderer's are #2 on my list, and why they are far superior to USB. Most people think "USB, Ethernet, what's the difference?" Well there's quite a big difference. I don't know all the technical details at the finest level, but with USB, much of the processing occurs on the computer, or dedicated renderer end. So the quality of how things are handled on that end has an influence on the sound. USB also sends a clock signal. Anywhere there's a clock involved, jitter can be introduced. Many will say "That's what Async is for" Well Async isn't perfect, if it was, the USB cable used as well as the computer/renderer would have no bearing on the sound. Reclocking helps, but still not as good as if only a single clock is in the picture. The more circuitry the signal passes through, the more degradation occurs. Then we have the issue of dealing with the noise being passed through the cable from the computer/renderer. Galvanic isolation is used in the best DAC's these days. But the problem with galvanic isolators is, they introduce even more jitter into the system. So then to eliminate this, we must reclock again after the galvanic isolation. Combine all of this with what Dustin said in my earlier post, and this is the many pitfalls of USB.

With Ethernet renderer's, the system works much like the SD card transport in the Invicta/Mirus. When you connect a PC or NAS up to it, it's only streaming the data in, but no clock. The chip on the interface inside the DAC is actually a very low noise micro computer that's dedicated to extracting the purest I2S and DSD streams out of this data. The data isn't even clocked until the process when the data is buffered into the RAM chip. And the clock used is the master clock of the whole DAC. So the whole chip can be synchronously clocked to the same ultra low phase noise master as the DAC chip uses. This is a far superior approach. However since the data is coming in through a cable that has the possibility to carry noise, there's the opportunity for noise to travel into the DAC through the cable. But there's ways to remedy this.

Why would Toslink be at the bottom of my list? It seems like it would be perfect. It offers 100% isolation from noise transferred from the transport. However the problem lies in the transceivers that convert the signal to light on the sending end, and back to copper on the receiving end. Since Toslink carries a clock signal, jitter is introduced by these transceivers.

But what if there was no clock signal? Well this is what we have with Ethernet. We can reap the rewards of the total noise isolation, without having to worry about jitter being introduced. This is because there's no clock signal to begin with to add jitter to. So as long as the transceiver is a low noise device powered by a low noise supply, using fibre to send the data to an Ethernet renderer has the potential of matching the quality of an internal SD card reader, and have the ability to use fancy remote GUI's and remote storage.
 

c1ferrari

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DoP was created as a method to send DSD over standard PCM hardware easily. A lot of it was to get around limitations with Apple's core audio to send DSD. What it does is encodes the DSD stream to PCM on the sending end, and decodes it back to DSD on the receiving end. Although it is a lossless process, it takes extra overhead on both the sending and receiving ends, as well as higher bandwidth is used up in the transmission protocol. Native sends the DSD direct and avoids the encoding/decoding process. So native is a better way to do things. With most DAC USB interfaces, Windows and ASIO is required for native DSD streaming, however with the latest Xmos chips and the right firmware, native is now an option for Mac and Linux.

You can read more about DoP here:

http://dsd-guide.com/dop-open-standard

Hi Blizzard,

Thank you for the reply. I've thought and continue to believe, perhaps...erroneosly, that DSD over PCM, i.e., DoP, is sort of a kludge. My preference is to see properly implemented SDIF-3 solutions for DSD signal exchange between DSD gear. I'm currently using a laptop with JRMC 21 to send DSD over PCM, via USB cable, to a Grace Design m905. I can lock onto DSD64, but
as yet cannot lock onto DSD128. The USB cable is ~15', perhaps too long? :confused:

Thanks for the link, too. :)
 

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