I am sure there are many tape heads in Europe who could hook you up with more mainstream popular music.
Help me w/reservations about taking the R2R tape plunge...
- Thread starter spiritofmusic
- Start date
I am sure there are many tape heads in Europe who could hook you up with more mainstream popular music.
I've heard the GG and Nadac in the same system (I own a GG and the Trinity). it was not a good comparison for various reasons but I heard it none-the-less.
my experience with studio engineers is that their reference on much of this stuff is sorely lacking.
theirs would be down the list of opinions I would want.
but that's just me. when they hear top level vinyl they are like deer in the headlights as they never knew it could do that. their biases from 20 years ago are clear as a bell. their agendas are to please their clients so they get paid. it's different than how we view things.
I have a 1/2" dub of a very famous iconic jazz/blues recording that was from a 30ips 1/4" very low gen safety. I have the 2xdsd of that same tape. game. set. match. to the tape. not even close. and the 45rpm of it is also quite a bit better than the 2xdsd.
why is that?
is it the playback system of tape and vinyl?
is it the media?
both maybe?
forget the vinyl and tape media. their playback systems do something that digital simply cannot capture and then reproduce. period. and they never will.
and I'm not anti-digital. I just spent way north of $50k on my digital to prove that. it's great. I love it. it's good enough.
but it's not analog.
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My approach to tape is different. I don't look at it as an everyday format. It is for special occasions. And there, nothing matches it and I am not talking about sound quality 
. I am talking about sitting there and watching those beautiful reels spin and VU meters dancing. The good sound compliments it all. For this type of use a few tapes get you started.
My suggestion is to not spend $24K on a deck as you said in the other thread. Get a stock deck for 10% of that cost and a few tapes. Then you don't feel guilty that you spent that much money with little content. All the benefits I explained are there at that price as well as in a more expensive package.
Note that I grew up with tape as the premier format. So there is that intangible that pulls me there much like someone collecting their childhood toys as antiques. If you didn't, the equation may not be so easy to solve.
. I am talking about sitting there and watching those beautiful reels spin and VU meters dancing. The good sound compliments it all. For this type of use a few tapes get you started. My suggestion is to not spend $24K on a deck as you said in the other thread. Get a stock deck for 10% of that cost and a few tapes. Then you don't feel guilty that you spent that much money with little content. All the benefits I explained are there at that price as well as in a more expensive package.
Note that I grew up with tape as the premier format. So there is that intangible that pulls me there much like someone collecting their childhood toys as antiques. If you didn't, the equation may not be so easy to solve.
I keep asking the same q, but get curve balls - no disrespect to you, and Mike in this matter, but your answers are really not helping me.
Ok, let me rephrase the q.
I went on the UHA website which then links to Bob's Yarlung label, and many others incl Opus 3, Tape Project etc.
At the end of checking inventory, I ended up w/one must-buy - S.Rollins ''Sax Colossus", and two or three classical titles incl a 3-reel Bach amounting to c$1k.
Ok, I have NO issue w/tape pricing (I totally get why they are so pricy, and if you look at Hot Stampers, costs are in the same Ball Park), and NO issue w/the medium.
And this thread is not a criticism - I totally salute Bob and these other bearers of the tape flame.
But I don't see any bigger titles. Yet J. Valin has reported hearing Sgt. Pepper never better, on 15ips/2 track, the UHA website comments on a tape of Led Zep 3 (sorely in need of a sonic upgrade from my UK vinyl), and Mike and Christian allude to more titles available. And on Ebay is a half dozen of Beatles 15ips/2 track.
So this is the q - was Sgt. Pepper and LZ 3 ever officially released on 15ips/2 track? If so, I can't find any details, if not, what is the source of these? Are they dubs, or multiple generations down the line from the master?
I've had luck sourcing bootlegs of live performances over the years, and this world is pretty hazy, but R2R availability is positively opaque.
Classic albums I'd love to own on quality 15ips/2 track are things like The Beatles, Cream, early Santana, Coltrane, 60s/70s Miles, early prog, The Who, Eric Dolphy, Wayne Shorter, Weather Report. And as much classical as I can buy from the heyday of pre digital recording. I sporadically see this stuff in 7.5ips, and have no idea what the provenance is, are they copies/dubs, official releases.
Because the official releases I looked at today, w/a few exceptions will not make me invest.
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I would love to sit down and compare all the Opus 3 stuff on master tape vs DSD 256 on the NADAC. That's the only true way to compare. Jan from Opus has done this. So I don't think he's among the crowd who hasn't compared to a good reference. He's been recording masterpieces on R2R tape since 1976. He's won awards for his analog recordings. I really can't see how a general enthusiast could have a higher level of experience in this area than him.
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My approach to tape is different. I don't look at it as an everyday format. It is for special occasions. And there, nothing matches it and I am not talking about sound quality
My suggestion is to not spend $24K on a deck as you said in the other thread. Get a stock deck for 10% of that cost and a few tapes. Then you don't feel guilty that you spent that much money with little content. All the benefits I explained are there at that price as well as in a more expensive package.
Note that I grew up with tape as the premier format. So there is that intangible that pulls me there much like someone collecting their childhood toys as antiques. If you didn't, the equation may not be so easy to solve.
We really have different views on R2R tape. IMHO having just a stock deck and tapes is a poor investment. We would be paying a fortune for the tapes and they would sound inferior to a good digital player. Only if you had a well cared and aligned machine and a decent head amplifier you will notice the extra quality of top tapes. Only the top reel machines have really good electronics. The most expensive item of owning a tape reel deck is labor. Very few people know how to service and tune a machine. It takes a considerable time and repairs can be very expensive.
I own two Studer A80s, a P99 mk3 and a Revox's. The Bottlehead Eros tube tape head preamplifier really makes the difference.
Long ago, when I owned a Forsell CD transport and DAC, I recorded a few tape dubs for a friend that just wanted to seat and listen looking to the moving reels and VU meters of his Revox A77 . He found them excellent, much better than his CDs, and I got a few bottles of excellent wine for my work!
IMHO many of us do not run into R2R tape for the music or nostalgia. We run into it for the sound quality, and are fortunate that we can get some excellent music in this format, but in a very limited catalog. Anyway, hobbies should not need justifications ...
Here's a great article on Jan from Opus 3:
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue63/opus3.htm
That was his view back in 2012. Here's what he had to say while auditioning his masters transferred to DSD 256 with the Merging Horus.
"The results were remarkable. In direct A/B testing, source against Quad DSD, I really could not tell the difference between the two. Nor could Jan-Eric Persson, who heard my DSD transfer of his tape at RMAF 2013. "That's my tape!" he cried, when he heard it in the PF hospitality room. (He's right, you know.)
The experience of playing back those transfers via the NADAC recreates the experience of hearing them with the Horus ADDA: The very tape itself."
http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/impressions-the-merging-technology-nadac-mc-8-dsd-dac/
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue63/opus3.htm
That was his view back in 2012. Here's what he had to say while auditioning his masters transferred to DSD 256 with the Merging Horus.
"The results were remarkable. In direct A/B testing, source against Quad DSD, I really could not tell the difference between the two. Nor could Jan-Eric Persson, who heard my DSD transfer of his tape at RMAF 2013. "That's my tape!" he cried, when he heard it in the PF hospitality room. (He's right, you know.)
The experience of playing back those transfers via the NADAC recreates the experience of hearing them with the Horus ADDA: The very tape itself."
http://positive-feedback.com/audio-discourse/impressions-the-merging-technology-nadac-mc-8-dsd-dac/
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You should have been at RMAF and hearing what I heard there with stock electronics in a Technics 1500.
I have a modern and still in production tape deck so the upkeep and repair is not an issue for me. I also used to repair a ton of them back in 1970s so repair is not a concern either.
You would have to separate coloration and better fidelity in that equation for me to pay attention to it.
I don't come from your belief system in audio. I didn't seek tape because there was fidelity missing in my current music format. I sought it for reasons I mentioned.
Doing some late night research, and UltraAnalogue Recordings has the best current catalog, and is doing a lot to tempt me. There's a good 6 titles that appeal to me.
I've spent $15k each on my tt and cdp, and Greg Berons UHA gear appeals, maybe the second least expensive model (I have strict upper budgets for individual components, and cannot countenance paying more than $15k max for R2R/tape head preamp), Micro would you recommend I augment it w/a tube preamp/output stage?
I presume the UHA decks can play out of the box but as a tube guy, a tube stage would make me happy.
Maybe then a GG for pcm rips and dsd/2x/4x.
God, $300-$500 per tape, $300+ for Hot Stampers, this hobby is worse than a hard drug habit, or having a wife into designer shoes and handbags who has access to my credit card
I've spent $15k each on my tt and cdp, and Greg Berons UHA gear appeals, maybe the second least expensive model (I have strict upper budgets for individual components, and cannot countenance paying more than $15k max for R2R/tape head preamp), Micro would you recommend I augment it w/a tube preamp/output stage?
I presume the UHA decks can play out of the box but as a tube guy, a tube stage would make me happy.
Maybe then a GG for pcm rips and dsd/2x/4x.
God, $300-$500 per tape, $300+ for Hot Stampers
, this hobby is worse than a hard drug habit, or having a wife into designer shoes and handbags who has access to my credit card
well...I have a tape of JITPS and the dsd and 2xdsd of it. the Tape is better enough than the 2xdsd that I cannot imagine that the Quad would be as good as the tape. as far as Jan, I respect that we all have our opinions and our own particular systems where we come to our conclusions.
What are you using in your playback chain to listen to the DSD version? This will of course impact the sound quality.
I also have that album, but I don't have an R2R with master tape to compare it with
No doubt we can have excellent sound with standard electronics - in tape, digital or vinyl. Just tune the system to complement this particular source, choose the appropriate music for the room and it is an a success in a show. However IMHO experience excellent electronics are worth the the difference. Good friends own standard Teac XR1000 and a Technics RS1500, I have some experience with them.
I also service and modify my machines - I have MRF tapes and several wow and flutter meters. I use a PC spectra analyzer to the study the individual flutter lines, and have one large cupboard filled with Studer spares.
However my recommendation was for non experts who must pay for service. I know it, but most people who own or want to know R2R for sound, not for hypnotics and nostalgia, seem to pay attention to it. [/QUOTE]
Surely. It seemed to me that the intention of the other people posting was different from yours - it is why I posted my own and humble advice.
If humbleness was the objective, nothing remotely like that came across. I shared my views in the context of why one would want to invest in R2R with a handful of tapes to their liking. I am in that bucket. OP is now getting ready to spend $15K with the same paucity of titles at his disposal. I rather save most of that and buy music in other formats I have and love. The sum total of enjoyment is far higher that way than to have a $15K machine get used for a dozen tapes here and there.
Amirm, I only mention $15k for deck/tape headamp, since that is the sum I've spent each on my tt front end and cdp. I may well spend the same on a GG for pcm rips/dsd, and my OCD pushes me to consider the same outlay for tape, esp if I need to find a budget for a tube tape head amp. I have 1500 lps, and c.1000 cd's. Going tape I may only end up w/a total of a few dozen, and so an equivalent sum doesn't seem warranted. But there's no doubt that the highest quality format of all demands a pretty reasonable investment.
And before anyone says spend the cash instead on a better tt etc, actually I am set on my current front end and have no desire to go further. Tape and GG, now that's a different matter.
But I will cast around for alternatives w/more competitive pricing than UHA.
Am I right in thinking the UHA decks are plug and play, ie out of the box, set up, interconnect to preamp, rock and roll? Or do they need additional spend on tape headamp? And if the latter is true, can this be bypassed at a later date for a tubed preamp?
And before anyone says spend the cash instead on a better tt etc, actually I am set on my current front end and have no desire to go further. Tape and GG, now that's a different matter.
But I will cast around for alternatives w/more competitive pricing than UHA.
Am I right in thinking the UHA decks are plug and play, ie out of the box, set up, interconnect to preamp, rock and roll? Or do they need additional spend on tape headamp? And if the latter is true, can this be bypassed at a later date for a tubed preamp?
We already know this commendable particular objective of yours from other threads - advising people to save in equipment to buy more music. But IMHO enjoyment is a very private matter and I just quote bonzo75 about our audio activities:
Since you live in the UK, perhaps an european machine will be worth considering. Nagra, Studer or even an old Telefunken are great possibilities.
Haven't said that, nor is that the approach I have used in audio. In this instance however, I am providing that reasoning because of how few tapes one might want to own.
Not in this case as OP is asking how he can justify getting into R2R. He is asking for feedback and why each one of us has invested in the forum. I shared my opinion. Didn't realize it would be so bothersome as to trigger an argument like this. Good grief.
I am going to start pulling you two apart, like a referee in a boxing ring! Bonzo75, stop the jabs!
Blizzard, respectfully, spiritofmusic asked a narrow question about the practical availability of popular classical music on reel-to-reel tape. I did not interpret his question as soliciting a re-litigation of the merits of digital playback.
As someone who uses all-tube electronics, who presently is vinyl only, and who has just begun buying tapes, I can assure you that convenience does not appear anywhere on my list of high-end audio objectives!
Blizzard, please. Whether the subject is politics or high-end audio or any other subjective field of human endeavor when has "because guru x says it is true, then it is true" ever been a persuasive and logical argument? Spiritofmusic did not ask to be persuaded that digital sounds as good as tape.
Maybe Mr. Persson cannot tell the difference between a master tape and his DSD, and maybe I cannot either, but I bet Mike Lavigne can! And maybe Mr. Persson has a business reason for declaring that DSD sounds identical to tape?
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