Help me w/reservations about taking the R2R tape plunge...

spiritofmusic · Oct 21, 2015

It's a question I'm sure all you tape afficionados have been asked before, and maybe a little tired of hearing, but hey, as my mum once said, I was put on this Earth to be difficult!
My good pal on WBF, RonR, is highly enthusiastic re tape as the pinnacle of analog. I agree 200%, both the SQ and importantly the whole look/vibe/feel etc.
So no convincing me needed of the joys promised.
But I'm struggling w/the availability of titles I really want to buy.
I've gone thru the dozen odd tape labels on the UHA website, and other than Sonny Rollins "Saxophone Colossus", and a handful of classical titles (incl a Bach 3-reel that woud set me back a cool $1k), I can honestly say not a lot else commands my attention.
NO criticism is intended - these labels are doing an amazing job.
But I'm looking for some Stravinsky, some more Bach, maybe Planets Suite, Scheherazade, maybe Blue Note type stuff, Michael Hedges
I know it's next to impossible for more popular titles to be released, both reticence by the labels, prohibitive licencing costs, masters not always existing on tape.
But surely some stuff from eg Windham Hill might be possible.
Or am I expecting too much?
I'm afraid I'm never going to buy tapes of artists I've never heard of playing material unknown to me, just for the ultimate analog thrill (again, no disrespect to those artists/labels).
So, help me...

bonzo75 · Oct 21, 2015

If you like Stravinsky so much why didn't you join us for Valery Gergiev Rite of Spring or go for his Firebird?

spiritofmusic · Oct 21, 2015

Text or email me those dates again Bonzo. Late evenings at work are precluding too many concerts atm.
And your thoughts on my thread?

bonzo75 · Oct 21, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Text or email me those dates again Bonzo. Late evenings at work are precluding too many concerts atm.
And your thoughts on my thread?

Those concerts are over. What thoughts? Anyone should go for R2R if they can afford it and at least a 100 - 200 tapes. If you are willing to make that financial commitment do, if not, don't

spiritofmusic · Oct 21, 2015

And what exactly are these 100-200 tapes? And from what source?

bonzo75 · Oct 21, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
And what exactly are these 100-200 tapes? And from what source?

No idea, but some research should get you there. I am sure there will a few

Mike Lavigne · Oct 21, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
It's a question I'm sure all you tape afficionados have been asked before, and maybe a little tired of hearing, but hey, as my mum once said, I was put on this Earth to be difficult!
My good pal on WBF, RonR, is highly enthusiastic re tape as the pinnacle of analog. I agree 200%, both the SQ and importantly the whole look/vibe/feel etc.
So no convincing me needed of the joys promised.
But I'm struggling w/the availability of titles I really want to buy.
I've gone thru the dozen odd tape labels on the UHA website, and other than Sonny Rollins "Saxophone Colossus", and a handful of classical titles (incl a Bach 3-reel that woud set me back a cool $1k), I can honestly say not a lot else commands my attention.
NO criticism is intended - these labels are doing an amazing job.
But I'm looking for some Stravinsky, some more Bach, maybe Planets Suite, Scheherazade, maybe Blue Note type stuff, Michael Hedges
I know it's next to impossible for more popular titles to be released, both reticence by the labels, prohibitive licencing costs, masters not always existing on tape.
But surely some stuff from eg Windham Hill might be possible.
Or am I expecting too much?
I'm afraid I'm never going to buy tapes of artists I've never heard of playing material unknown to me, just for the ultimate analog thrill (again, no disrespect to those artists/labels).
So, help me...

you don't find those titles....those titles find you.

it all can be got.

research is not likely going to help as far as 'real deal' iconic classical orchestral titles that justify the commitment to the format at a high level. almost all recent classical orchestral is digitally recorded anyway.

small scale classical tape titles are out there to find from recent performances.

Al M. · Oct 21, 2015

Availability of music is of course the big issue. It also has prevented me from jumping to SACD, hi-res DSD and hi-res PCM. I'll stick with the humble CD format, thank you very much, and try to enjoy this format where all the music is as best as I can.

Vinyl fares better in this respect than tape and non-CD digital, but not necessarily with newer titles.

Blizzard · Oct 21, 2015

Based on what everyone's saying about master tapes converted to DSD 256, with a good DSD 256 compatible DAC, it's impossible to tell the difference from the master tape. So going this route you can take advantage of the growing number of DSD 256 master tape transfers, while also having compatibility with all the other digital formats. Best of all 1 piece of gear to do it all.

And let's not forget the convenience of using mobile app GUI's for an interface.

rockitman · Oct 21, 2015

The media is the rub..both access and cost. Figure on average $400.00 per title which is usually two reels. 100 titles...$40,000.00 please.

spiritofmusic · Oct 21, 2015

Blizzard said:
Based on what everyone's saying about master tapes converted to DSD 256, with a good DSD 256 compatible DAC, it's impossible to tell the difference from the master tape. So going this route you can take advantage of the growing number of DSD 256 master tape transfers, while also having compatibility with all the other digital formats. Best of all 1 piece of gear to do it all.

And let's not forget the convenience of using mobile app GUI's for an interface.

Blizzard, that's not quite true.
D. Robinson on one hand in the glowing review of the Merging Tech Nadac states what you say.
Andreas Koch, the Playback Designs guy OTOH says that dsd 256 is a blind alley, prone to more noise, the need to convert to pcm at some point, and that dsd 128 should be the Holy Grail.
Listen, I'm a died in the wool analog man, and 15ips really floats my boat as a concept.
But I just cannot justify such an outlay for only occasional playback.

spiritofmusic · Oct 21, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
you don't find those titles....those titles find you.

it all can be got.

research is not likely going to help as far as 'real deal' iconic classical orchestral titles that justify the commitment to the format at a high level. almost all recent classical orchestral is digitally recorded anyway.

small scale classical tape titles are out there to find from recent performances.

Mike, I've always found your responses to be helpful in the past, but you're being deliberately obtuse here.
If you're saying that there are illicit sources of these tapes, and my public interest will draw attention so that people contact me, just say so.
Otherwise this is making me more anti getting into tape than before.

Simple q, maybe you can answer this more directly.
There's a whole slew of Beatles 15ips/2 track for sale on Ebay right now, from Moldova of all places.
If you wanted this material, what would you be considering?
Because I've never seen the Beatles officially available on tape.

Or maybe you're saying it's all akin to the bootleg situation in the past.

spiritofmusic · Oct 21, 2015

rockitman said:
The media is the rub..both access and cost. Figure on average $400.00 per title which is usually two reels. 100 titles...$40,000.00 please.

Christian, the cost I can handle. It's the lack of breadth of material.
Mike alludes to there being a lot out there, but for the life of me I can't see it.
And the official labels have very little of interest to me.

Blizzard · Oct 21, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Blizzard, that's not quite true.
D. Robinson on one hand in the glowing review of the Merging Tech Nadac states what you say.
Andreas Koch, the Playback Designs guy OTOH says that dsd 256 is a blind alley, prone to more noise, the need to convert to pcm at some point, and that dsd 128 should be the Holy Grail.
Listen, I'm a died in the wool analog man, and 15ips really floats my boat as a concept.
But I just cannot justify such an outlay for only occasional playback.

There is only need to convert to PCM if you need to do editing to the master tape. If what you want is an exact replica of the master tape, you don't want to convert to PCM or edit. The noise he's talking about is a non issue with DSD 256 and beyond, as it's well out of the audible range.

There's no more of a "died in the wool" analog man than Jan Eric Persson of Opus 3 records. He used to only release his music on R2R tape. But now with DSD, he claims he can't tell the difference from his tapes. When a master analog man who knows the sound of his tapes better than anyone makes that claim, I listen.

es347 · Oct 21, 2015

Al M. said:
Availability of music is of course the big issue. It also has prevented me from jumping to SACD, hi-res DSD and hi-res PCM. I'll stick with the humble CD format, thank you very much, and try to enjoy this format where all the music is as best as I can.

Vinyl fares better in this respect than tape and non-CD digital, but not necessarily with newer titles.

..+1

Mike Lavigne · Oct 21, 2015

Blizzard said:
There is only need to convert to PCM if you need to do editing to the master tape. If what you want is an exact replica of the master tape, you don't want to convert to PCM or edit. The noise he's talking about is a non issue with DSD 256 and beyond, as it's well out of the audible range.

There's no more of a "died in the wool" analog man than Jan Eric Persson of Opus 3 records. He used to only release his music on R2R tape. But now with DSD, he claims he can't tell the difference from his tapes. When a master analog man who knows the sound of his tapes better than anyone makes that claim, I listen.

same thing was said about 2xdsd for quite a while. "can't tell the difference". got lots of 2xdsd from Tape. difference is easy to tell.

2xdsd from tape sounds great. even wonderful. it does not need to sound better. but it's not the tape.

I bought a few Quad files last week; they were uneven sounding and I wondered why. come to find out that some are tape sourced. makes perfect sense. Quad dsd is not tape. again; it sounds wonderful....as good as it needs to sound. nothing wrong or to apologize for. but it's not all there. a quality tape dub of a tape is closer to the original tape than the Quad dsd copy of that same tape. that pretty much says it all.

I've copied my own 1/4" tape with my own 1/2" tape. it's closer than any Quad dsd copy of a tape.

of course; we are talking about small differences here at this level and you need a system with high levels of resolution to be concerning yourself.

es347 · Oct 21, 2015

This is what I find so frustrating about this hobby and I'm just as guilty as anyone. Even if you have a system that sounds great and checks the boxes, just knowing/thinking there's something better out there be it software or hardware keeps us awake at night. Like I said I'm guilty as charged and find that it really takes away from enjoying what I have. My $.02 and then some..

Blizzard · Oct 21, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
same thing was said about 2xdsd for quite a while. "can't tell the difference". got lots of 2xdsd from Tape. difference is easy to tell.

2xdsd from tape sounds great. even wonderful. it does not need to sound better. but it's not the tape.

I bought a few Quad files last week; they were uneven sounding and I wondered why. come to find out that some are tape sourced. makes perfect sense. Quad dsd is not tape. again; it sounds wonderful....as good as it needs to sound. nothing wrong or to apologize for. but it's not all there. a quality tape dub of a tape is closer to the tape than the Quad dsd. that pretty much says it all.

I guess you would need to compare the same tapes, with the DSD copies played back on quality DAC's like the NADAC or Lampizator GG. It's funny all the studio engineers, and anal recording guru's with decades of analog tape experience would have such a distorted view on this topic.

But yes of course you must make sure the source is actually from master tape, if you want master tape sound. But I can imagine the placebo effect of knowing it's not the tape would definitely be powerful enough to make it sound worse. So double blind tests would be essential.

Al M. · Oct 21, 2015

es347 said:
This is what I find so frustrating about this hobby and I'm just as guilty as anyone. Even if you have a system that sounds great and checks the boxes, just knowing/thinking there's something better out there be it software or hardware keeps us awake at night. Like I said I'm guilty as charged and find that it really takes away from enjoying what I have. My $.02 and then some..

Not necessarily. I am now happy with what I have, see my posts on this thread:

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18708-Sonic-Bliss

In fact, yesterday I was again blown away by the music I was listening to and by the sound of my system, without pretending to myself that it's the best I've heard. I am convinced that I will have a splendid evening of music tonight as well.

bonzo75 · Oct 21, 2015

es347 said:
This is what I find so frustrating about this hobby and I'm just as guilty as anyone. Even if you have a system that sounds great and checks the boxes, just knowing/thinking there's something better out there be it software or hardware keeps us awake at night. Like I said I'm guilty as charged and find that it really takes away from enjoying what I have. My $.02 and then some..

That's why it is a hobby.

Help me w/reservations about taking the R2R tape plunge...

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