adding the Lampizator SE GG to the Trinity dac

Nevillekapadia · Oct 18, 2015

Mike, some great changes and clearly as you describe, steps ahead of what I heard for which I am still fortunate.

Look forward to reading your posts as it settles in even further.

May be a trek back after a few years could be imminent!

Take care.

Nev

Mike Lavigne · Oct 18, 2015

Audiophile Bill said:
Epic system! Many congrats - Golden Gate will bring endless musical pleasure that is a cert!

Bill,

thanks. and I really enjoyed your review of the GG, very well written and thoughtful.

Mike

Mike Lavigne · Oct 18, 2015

Steve Williams said:
Mike

Careful with those tubes cuz it can be like playing the slots. Sooner or later (hopefully much later) you turn on your system and a tube can go. You only pray it ain't one of those WE

I also agree with you about SE vs balanced.

thanks for the warning. but I'm a guy who lived with tubed Tenor OTL's for three years with my Kharma Exquisite Ref 1D's with ceramic drivers. lots of smoking tubes and circuits, and lots of holes in drivers. a crap shoot as they say. I got good at shipping amps to Montreal, and replacing ceramic drivers. too good.

my other experiences with owning tubes never resulted in any disasters.....Aesthetix Io phono with tubed power supply, the Lamm LP2, also a couple great headphone tubed amps. OTOH I never owned $3k-$5k each tubes before. that does put a whole different slant on the issue.

Mike Lavigne · Oct 18, 2015

zztop7 said:
If you get near Edmonds, let me know in advance. You can stop by & borrow:
300Bs - grid or carbon or both
2A3s
etc.
PM me for the phone #
zz.

ZZ,

many thanks for the kind, generous, offer. I will take you up on it once this beast has settled down a bit so I know it's the tubes that are causing the changes.

PM on the way.

microstrip · Oct 18, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Please tell me what I'm missing.
First, Elberoth aquires a GG and Trinity DACs
Then Audiocrack.
Now Mike.
Three top guys, running two purported SOTA DACs, one Euros 40k, the other Euros 15k-20k.
One for DSD, one PCM.
Are we saying a SOTA DAC can only do one or the other and therefore if you want to run multiple native formats, one must run multiple DACs?

You are addressing one of the most challenging and interesting subjects of current SOTA digital. This duality suggests that the maximum sound quality we get from DSD and PCM is due to the implementation of the DAC and its adequacy to the format. I have no experience or knowledge about the software tools that transcribe formats. However considering that the Trinity uses an excellent algorithm and custom hardware to oversample the original RedBook files to its multi DAC system, I have the feeling that an optimum software algorithm could transcribe RedBook files to 4xDSD files, enabling us to have top similar audio quality with the GG. Just my .02 feeling!

Afer all, Mike uses the same preamplifier and amplifier to play all formats. Could we accept that we should have a different preamplifier and amplifier to get the best of each digital format?

But yes, I am considering a GG to keep company to my tubed PCM Metrome C2A ...

Mike Lavigne · Oct 18, 2015

microstrip said:
You are addressing one of the most challenging and interesting subjects of current SOTA digital. This duality suggests that the maximum sound quality we get from DSD and PCM is due to the implementation of the DAC and its adequacy to the format. I have no experience or knowledge about the software tools that transcribe formats. However considering that the Trinity uses an excellent algorithm and custom hardware to oversample the original RedBook files to its multi DAC system, I have the feeling that an optimum software algorithm could transcribe RedBook files to 4xDSD files, enabling us to have top similar audio quality with the GG. Just my .02 feeling!

Afer all, Mike uses the same preamplifier and amplifier to play all formats. Could we accept that we should have a different preamplifier and amplifier to get the best of each digital format?

But yes, I am considering a GG to keep company to my tubed PCM Metrome C2A ...

I hesitate to even consider discussing technical points with you Micro as a don't want to bring attention to my lack of much deep understanding......but one of the significant features of the Trinity dac is that it has no analog output stage; none. the dac design has enough drive that it can eliminate that source of distortion.

another is the quite expensive to build ladder dac which eliminates the rough artifacts of the PCM format. it's an expensive hardware solution with, or course, an algorithm to go along with it. not sure simple math can overcome what that spendy piece of hardware does.

I've lived with PCM converted to 2xdsd for 9 years. it simply is not in the realm of the Trinity in any way, shape or form.

greatest potential musical truth = native format. that is what it looks like to me.

Mike Lavigne · Oct 18, 2015

Nevillekapadia said:
Mike, some great changes and clearly as you describe, steps ahead of what I heard for which I am still fortunate.

Look forward to reading your posts as it settles in even further.

May be a trek back after a few years could be imminent!

Take care.

Nev

Thanks Neville, I hope that you can visit again when it works out, I sure enjoyed our time together.

Mike

bonzo75 · Oct 18, 2015

microstrip said:
You are addressing one of the most challenging and interesting subjects of current SOTA digital. This duality suggests that the maximum sound quality we get from DSD and PCM is due to the implementation of the DAC and its adequacy to the format. I have no experience or knowledge about the software tools that transcribe formats. However considering that the Trinity uses an excellent algorithm and custom hardware to oversample the original RedBook files to its multi DAC system, I have the feeling that an optimum software algorithm could transcribe RedBook files to 4xDSD files, enabling us to have top similar audio quality with the GG. Just my .02 feeling!

Afer all, Mike uses the same preamplifier and amplifier to play all formats. Could we accept that we should have a different preamplifier and amplifier to get the best of each digital format?

But yes, I am considering a GG to keep company to my tubed PCM Metrome C2A ...

The thing is we need both compared in the same system. Bruce should take his dac over to Mike. My theory is that there is not so much difference between DSD and PCM. If that was the case, DSD from Level 6 and Level 5 would have sounded much better than the PCM on Big 7, while the reverse is true. The reason is that Big 7, and then the GG, were DHT designs with NOS valves unlike the previous levels. That was the big jump. Sure, HQPlayer then came along and started a good algorithm for upsampling that made upsampling sound better than it did before. But if you upsample and play it natively through the Big 6, it is not going to sound as good as the Big 7. Sure DSD sounds better, but is fast becoming a red herring due to the forums. If you read Al Ries and Jack Trout on branding, the number 2 is soon forgotten.

The Big 7 is leaps ahead of the DSD of initial levels in resolving compex music, and the direct heated triodes make the dac tremendously fast. Play Gnomus from Mussorgsky's Pictures, which has quite a few thumps, and try reproducing them via SS. Also try putting it through a Jadis or Shindo type preamp, a Krell preamp, vs direct from the Lampi, the differences in speed are easily noticeable. This has nothing to do with DSD or PCM. Also if you change the valves, you can reduce the details or the speed. Again, nothing to do with DSD or PCM.

Mike Lavigne · Oct 18, 2015

Audiocrack said:
Glad that you are starting to like what you hear with the GG dac lately Mike. As mentioned in our private mails, the GG needs a lot of breaking in time before it starts to shine. Be prepared that it will get clearly better the next 300-400 hours of playing. And although the steps seem to get smaller, the next two-three weeks of playing in the end will be very important as well.

After breaking in the performance of the GG can be (dramatically) improved by:
a. Using a top notch ic between it and the preamp. In my case the Taralabs GM evolution demonstrates eg how much details the GG can dig up.
b. Using good supporting feet. As Bonzo and Audiophile Bill I like what three Shun Mook ultra's are doing.
c. Magnetic decoupling ( in my case Accurion/Halcyonics micro 40 units).
d. Grounding the GG ( in my case with a Tripoint Troy se).
e. Using a top quality grounding cable ( in my case a Tripoint Thor se).

All these steps but in particular all these steps combined contribute significantly to sound quality produced by the GG: lower noisefloor, better info retrieval, better (perceived) dynamics, more smoothness in the sound, better transparency etc.

So enjoy your GG ride as there is undoubtedly still quite a lot to discover.

thanks AC.....for the roadmap for where I'm going. I'm sure we will be in touch about it.

if I keep listening to you I'm never going to retire.

microstrip · Oct 18, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
(...) it's an expensive hardware solution with, or course, an algorithm to go along with it. not sure simple math can overcome what that spendy piece of hardware does.

I've lived with PCM converted to 2xdsd for 9 years. it simply is not in the realm of the Trinity in any way, shape or form.

greatest potential musical truth = native format. that is what it looks like to me.

Mike,

It also looks so from what I have read everywhere. Musical truth = native format. Many trustful people say so. But it must be accepted as an empirical dogma, there are no pure technical reasons for it. But this sentence applies to most of the high end technology.

Kingsrule · Oct 18, 2015

Hi Mike

What is the brand of stand you are using under the GG?

wisnon · Oct 18, 2015

Mike Lavigne said:
thanks for the warning. but I'm a guy who lived with tubed Tenor OTL's for three years with my Kharma Exquisite Ref 1D's with ceramic drivers. lots of smoking tubes and circuits, and lots of holes in drivers. a crap shoot as they say. I got good at shipping amps to Montreal, and replacing ceramic drivers. too good.

my other experiences with owning tubes never resulted in any disasters.....Aesthetix Io phono with tubed power supply, the Lamm LP2, also a couple great headphone tubed amps. OTOH I never owned $3k-$5k each tubes before. that does put a whole different slant on the issue.

Once the tubes are in good shape, they will last 20-30 years in the Dac, so no real worries.

Mike Lavigne · Oct 18, 2015

Kingsrule said:
Hi Mike

What is the brand of stand you are using under the GG?

Acoustic Dreams

I bought it used about 4 years ago and if you've seen recent pictures of my room it's been sitting on the right hand side of my room between my 2 Studer A-820 tape decks, with an EMT948 tt on top of it, and my King Cello tape repro/phono below it. I liked the top notch build quality of the Acoustics Dreams, and felt the look of the frame and shelves blended into my room and worked with the look of the Adona.

anticipating where and 'on what' to place the GG, with it's large footprint and heat from the tubes, I did consider buying a different rack.....and was likely going to buy another Adona GTX and turn it sideways for the GG and the various pieces of the new server. but I have not really been using that EMT at all, so I figured before I spend more money buying another rack, why not return the EMT to it's owner (it was loaned to me) and move a small table in it's place for the King Cello, and use the Acoustic Dreams for the GG. with it's triangle shape, I could 'tuck it into' the side of the Adona and it would look ok and fit in the space.

on Wednesday I moved stuff around and I think I like how it looks. and temporarily I had had the GG on a small table and I could tell that it did sound more 'grounded' once I moved it onto the Acoustic Dreams. not sure that it's a permanent solution, but it's ok at least and did not cause me to spend more money.

Kingsrule · Oct 18, 2015

Thanks Mike

I too think it looks great in your room....

wisnon · Oct 18, 2015

The whole room is just incredible...

Bruce B · Oct 18, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Please tell me what I'm missing.
First, Elberoth aquires a GG and Trinity DACs
Then Audiocrack.
Now Mike.
Three top guys, running two purported SOTA DACs, one Euros 40k, the other Euros 15k-20k.
One for DSD, one PCM.
Are we saying a SOTA DAC can only do one or the other and therefore if you want to run multiple native formats, one must run multiple DACs?

I'm totally satisfied how the PCM is sounding out of the GG. I've had top PCM DAC's in here as well (i.e.: MSB Diamond, PM2, Phasure, Horus)

bonzo75 · Oct 18, 2015

Bruce B said:
I'm totally satisfied how the PCM is sounding out of the GG. I've had top PCM DAC's in here as well (i.e.: MSB Diamond, PM2, Phasure, Horus)

Bruce, what are the differences you find playing native pcm, pcm upsampled to dsd, and native dsd? Sure native dsd must be better but I think that's making people wonder how close, or far pcm is.

Bruce B · Oct 18, 2015

bonzo75 said:
Bruce, what are the diffrences you find playing native pcm, pcm upsamples to dsd, and native dsd? Sure native dsd must be better but I think that's making people wonder how close, or far pcm is.

For a year or so, I had the Lampi DSD DAC and had to upsample all my PCM. I believe my PD also upsamples everything as well. I found PCM upsampled wasn't as defined and had a smaller sound stage (front/back, side to side) than native DSD. Now, I have less or even no difference/preference now. This is what the industry needed, a DAC that had 2 separate architectures in one chassis. It may be a PITA having to press a button, the the pay off is worth it. I got off this merry-go-round.

microstrip · Oct 18, 2015

Bruce B said:
For a year or so, I had the Lampi DSD DAC and had to upsample all my PCM. I believe my PD also upsamples everything as well. I found PCM upsampled wasn't as defined and had a smaller sound stage (front/back, side to side) than native DSD. Now, I have less or even no difference/preference now. This is what the industry needed, a DAC that had 2 separate architectures in one chassis. It may be a PITA having to press a button, the the pay off is worth it. I got off this merry-go-round.

Bruce,

My main concern is just RedBook, please forget about HiRez PCM in this question. Did you find that 16/44.1 converted to 2xDSD also suffered from the lack of definition and smaller sound stage than played in the native 16/44.1 PCM in the GG?

Bruce B · Oct 18, 2015

microstrip said:
Bruce,

My main concern is just RedBook, please forget about HiRez PCM in this question. Did you find that 16/44.1 converted to 2xDSD also suffered from the lack of definition and smaller sound stage than played in the native 16/44.1 PCM in the GG?

That is correct, even more so.

adding the Lampizator SE GG to the Trinity dac

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