Introducing the New HiFi Miser Forum-As discussed by Andre Marc

Status
Not open for further replies.

853guy

Active Member
Aug 14, 2013
1,161
10
38
It was your post where you went on about the sexual degradation and all that other waffle re his use of the word bitch.
Worst pretentious hypocritical drivel I have ever read

To refresh you
Maybe the fact that you used a sexually-charged and misogynistic epithet in the title of your thread - which as well as being potentially offensive to women toward whom the word in question is most frequently directed, could also be seen as being offensive to anyone who has been subjected to sexual violence and/or enforced servitude against their free will - lead to the tone of the thread descending fairly quickly toward you needing to then follow up with a profanity-laced defensive tirade in an attempt at self-justification.

I mean, I get it... it’s a pop-culture reference, a word reappropriated by modern feminism and hip-hop... I get it. Far be it from me to tell you what to do or say, Andre, but as much as I will fiercly defend your right to freedom of speech here on this forum, unless you’re attempting reclaim the word on behalf of feminists, lesbians or victims of prison rape, perhaps the professional writer in you could be more self-selective of the words you choose to express yourself, especially given the heavily male-centric and male-dominated industry the high-end has historically been - and in the context of this forum, continues to be.

Sorry you see it that way, Rodney.

Perhaps you and Andre do not share the same worldview as I, and that’s fine. My worldview says the sensitivites of others are to be considered, even if they differ from mine, and especially, if they themselves have been marginalized because of choices not their own.

Perhaps the word “bitch” is something you consider acceptable to use toward women, victims of sexual violence or people in general, but the forum - the context in which this is being discussed - is pretty clear on what’s acceptable and what's not. Certainly, the people in my life who have been the recipients of sexual violence don’t consider discussing the ramifications of language as inconsequential, and certainly not as pretentious, hypocritical, nor “waffle”.

Again, can you please tell me why pointing out the language Andre employed as being potentially offensive to other members of the forum is hypocritical?

Thanks again,

853guy
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
It was your post where you went on about the sexual degradation and all that other waffle re his use of the word bitch.
Worst pretentious hypocritical drivel I have ever read
Well, I have also read just about every thread title on this forum since inception and I had a double take when I saw that before clicking on it. Even if you think it is OK, it is not how industry people should conduct themselves.

Long time ago I took a sexual harassment class. The core message that has stayed with me is this: whether something is offensive is up to the person hear/experiencing it, not the person saying/doing it. In this case, the choice of phrasing was poor and unprofessional and 853 guy expressed it. The answer to that as a minimum should have been "I understand" not to curse him as the next victim of profanity.

BTW, 853guy was one of the members I had to reach and apologize for on behalf of Andre. This is not the type of forum we run here and such language and conduct is not acceptable. The more it is defended, the more it encourages people to do it and then we sit here and wonder why they quit when like clockwork it gets out of control.
 

Ronm1

Member Sponsor
Feb 21, 2011
1,745
4
0
wtOMitMutb NH
TBH I still don't get all brouhaha over the use of the word or A's opinion of the H/W. I found it much more informative than discussing shades of blackness. Which IMHO is classic audio lunacy.
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,570
51
38
Calgary, AB
Personally I would not have used the language that Andre used, but I still defend his right to say it. He was personally maligned and I completely understand his frustration. He made an introduction of a product and then the armchair engineers dumped all over him. Apparently that tactic is perfectly fine. Double-standard anyone?
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,807
4,700
2,790
Portugal
(...) Perhaps the word “bitch” is something you consider acceptable to use toward women, victims of sexual violence or people in general, but the forum - the context in which this is being discussed - is pretty clear on what’s acceptable and what's not. (...)

Being a non native english reader I started posting in the Redgun thread without considering the tittle. My points were mainly technical and about how these aspects were being handled in the debate. Only later (with the help of google I must say) I fully understood the dubious implications of tittle. I must say that at that time I thought that if this disgusting tittle was written in my native language I would had never had posted is such a thread. However, as members I really appreciate were posting in agreement with my thoughts and some against it I feel compelled to go on posting.

IMHO we should clearly separate the abusive language issues from the audio related issues in this discussion.

As a side remark, I must say I often feel uncomfortable with the sexist and misogynistic content of many audio forums - but in this aspect WBF has been an oasis compared to other forums.

Just my 2 cents of an euro on a non-audio matter.
 

Ronm1

Member Sponsor
Feb 21, 2011
1,745
4
0
wtOMitMutb NH
IMO the h/w was looked at, not Andre. Now if he wants to take it that way, it's his problem. IME reviewers typically do not like being reviewed, no matter how remote. When one post in a forum, expect it. It's foolish not too.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
Personally I would not have used the language that Andre used, but I still defend his right to say it. He was personally maligned and I completely understand his frustration. He made an introduction of a product and then the armchair engineers dumped all over him. Apparently that tactic is perfectly fine. Double-standard anyone?
We didn't dump all over *him*. We spoke of something that was an odd design in the product. He took it on himself that he was being attacked. It is not like he said, "look at the great design of that heatsink" and we disagreed. He said it sounded amazing. We said but reliability may be a concern in its design.

His reaction was to violate the forum terms of service. While we did not. That is a single standard. That is the reason we have terms of service. To have a set of rules that are known when members join. And that calls for not using profanity no matter what the cause.

But let's say you are right. That we did dump on him on a technical point. So? That happens to me on every forum including ours. People disagree with my point and sometimes violently. Have you seen me use the "F" word with them? No. I post under my real name and as an industry member, i cannot ever, under any circumstance, go there.

Andre is posting under the umbrella of our forum. We gave him a specific forum with his name on it as we have done with other industry people. I don't see Bruce, Vincent, Gary, etc. cussing at people when they disagree with them. He needs to act the same way.

Still, as I said, we have gone out of our way to favor him by not sanctioning him in any manner, putting us in a difficult spot with respect to people have resented his conduct. So in that regard, yes, we are having a double standard but in favor of Andre, not the other way around.

It simply is a fact of life that making arguments on forum tough business. It is the type of thing that no one is taught how to do. Lessons therefore have to be learned the hard way and this is it.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Personally I would not have used the language that Andre used, but I still defend his right to say it. He was personally maligned and I completely understand his frustration. He made an introduction of a product and then the armchair engineers dumped all over him. Apparently that tactic is perfectly fine. Double-standard anyone?

I consider Andre a straight up guy who since the inception of his HiFi Miser subforum has only wanted to bring what he felt was a good amplifier for everyone to be aware of. Nothing more. He has no pony in the race and has no financial gain for having reviewed this product. All he gives is his time and enjoyment. He has used this amplifier without a hitch to drive his Maggies which we know love power. As Johnny says his frustration was brought to a boiling point by the "armchair engineers"who never once listened to this product but in their wisdom made al sorts of proclamations as to this being nothing more than a POS. How anyone can make such proclamations without so much as hearing this amplifier borders IMO on absurd. This is a $2500 amplifier which has performed flawlessly in his system driving his power hungry Maggies. I will never condone the use of profanity here and in everyone's opinion Andre was out of line. I know he feels badly about that and is apologetic however I am with Johnny here that the naysayers were a cause and their double standard is what caused his melt down. I have in the course of more than 45 years in the practice of medicine always tried to "maintain equanimity under stress" but I do feel that there are individuals who either knowingly or not tend to bring out the worst in people and IMO we witnessed another such event here with Andre's meltdown. I do know he understands that the profanity was way out of line and that he is apologetic. But Geeez, all the guy did was bring a product to our attention which he was using without a problem only to have people who have never heard it crap over it. Just the way I see it but no doubt others will disagree
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
As Johnny says his frustration was brought to a boiling point by the "armchair engineers"who never once listened to this product but in their wisdom made al sorts of proclamations as to this being nothing more than a POS.
We never said it was a POS or anything remotely resembling this. We said the heatsink is upside down and that may shorten the life of the capacitors. If that means it is a POS then we have do a lot more education for the membership on that point. None of what we said is proclamation. They were statements based on years of experience and repairing countless amplifiers.

I also post a link to a repair technician who had one of their amps to repair and he went on 100 times more than us on use of chinese no name parts. So if possession is required, he had it. And agreed with us armchair engineers. :) See http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ker-It-s-Bitch&p=353137&viewfull=1#post353137

As engineers we can spot unorthodox, interesting and poor designs from looking at a picture. This is why everyone in the world takes off the top of electronics from iPhone to their DAC and posts it online. We have to be one heck of an outlier to make that a bad thing to do.

That aside, everyone can ignore our posts. I ignore many posts that go against my understanding of audio. You don't see me go and curse people.

This is a $2500 amplifier which has performed flawlessly in his system driving his power hungry Maggies.
That is no evidence without knowing how loud he was playing and he knew what to listen for. A point I was going to demonstrate further but he had no interest in that technical discussion.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I recall you having asked Andre to tell you what he heard in the amp. He gave you a very precise reply as to what he heard and you said "that means nothing to me".

Tough to argue with some one who only sees one side of things. I don't know what more he could have explained to you what he heard that you could understand. I understood what he meant. Why was it difficult for you
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA
who never once listened to this product but in their wisdom made al sorts of proclamations as to this being nothing more than a POS. How anyone can make such proclamations without so much as hearing this amplifier borders IMO on absurd.

The only thing I would add to this discussion is that it is unrealistic to expect folks to talk ONLY about equipment they have heard. I brought up one example back then (Yugo), and here's another one, from this very forum: in the Giya G3(?) thread people criticized a set-up with the speakers against the wall, comparing it to Micheal's new set-up - I am sure those who criticized and compared the two have not heard either. I will emphasize "unrealistic".

I know he feels badly about that and is apologetic however I am with Johnny here that the naysayers were a cause and their double standard is what caused his melt down. I have in the course of more than 45 years in the practice of medicine always tried to "maintain equanimity under stress" but I do feel that there are individuals who either knowingly or not tend to bring out the worst in people and IMO we witnessed another such event here with Andre's meltdown. I do know he understands that the profanity was way out of line and that he is apologetic. But Geeez, all the guy did was bring a product to our attention which he was using without a problem only to have people who have never heard it crap over it. Just the way I see it but no doubt others will disagree

Apologies need to be made directly by Andre.
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,570
51
38
Calgary, AB
The only thing I would add to this discussion is that it is unrealistic to expect folks to talk ONLY about equipment they have heard. I brought up one example back then (Yugo), and here's another one, from this very forum: in the Giya G3(?) thread people criticized a set-up with the speakers against the wall, comparing it to Micheal's new set-up - I am sure those who criticized and compared the two have not heard either. I will emphasize "unrealistic".



Apologies need to be made directly by Andre.

Not just by Andre!
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,570
51
38
Calgary, AB

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
I recall you having asked Andre to tell you what he heard in the amp. He gave you a very precise reply as to what he heard and you said "that means nothing to me".
THe answer he gave was this:

My answer to you is the amplifier drove difficult loads with ease, running cool, with tremendous dynamics.

As I just explained this is insufficient and anything but precise. Again, if he had put aside constant insults and foul words, we would have managed to have that discussion. Instead he makes up a derogatory name for engineers and you all now use it like it is potato chips you are eating. Despite that here, is my polite answer back to him:

Thank you for the follow up on my question Andre. Unfortunately there is still little answer in what you write here. Instead of writing a long technical response :), let me present this video review of your Maggie .7 loudspeaker. Despite being a subjective review, it is right on point in this regard and how you can tell insufficient amplification for your loudspeakers:


The point is in the first 5 minutes and completely matches the experience I shared with them including the Carver amp!!!

This is the process I had hoped you would go through to determine the power capability of the amp. Knowing what to listen for and then seeing if this specific amplifier does the job or not. Ron in that video is right on the money on that front. And leaves me little to criticize even though the review is all subjective.

Let me give a shoutout to the review web site for a job well done by Ron Brenay at https://www.newrecordday.com

There is a lot more to this technically but as I said, I will leave it with this part for now.

Tough to argue with some one who only sees one side of things.
My problem exactly! :D If someone suggested smoking alpha alpha cures cancer, you would comment otherwise and no one in a million years would dump on you and call you armchair doctor. If I brought the designers of any electronic equipment you all own and showed him pictures of that amp they would have choice words and then some. Would you proceed to call them armchair engineers too?
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
Andre didn't get frustrated or peeved just because he felt like it.
My sense is that he was loaned an amplifier with the hopes from a distributor that something positive gets written about it. He did that. Problem is, he did not think that the very picture of the unit showed an engineering design no-no. He got caught by surprise and instead of thinking rationally and getting the designer to defend it, he decided that cursing members, accusing them of being shills, etc. was the right approach. So here he was, not being able to deliver what will enable him to get future loaner equipment.

You have a different theory of why he would react so violently?
 

ack

VIP/Donor & WBF Founding Member
May 6, 2010
6,774
1,198
580
Boston, MA

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,570
51
38
Calgary, AB
My sense is that he was loaned an amplifier with the hopes from a distributor that something positive gets written about it. He did that. Problem is, he did not think that the very picture of the unit showed an engineering design no-no. He got caught by surprise and instead of thinking rationally and getting the designer to defend it, he decided that cursing members, accusing them of being shills, etc. was the right approach. So here he was, not being able to deliver what will enable him to get future loaner equipment.

You have a different theory of why he would react so violently?

I've made it very clear what my opinion was (is) and I stand by that. You can frame it any which way you like and tell me what your sense of it was, but it doesn't take away from the fact he was attacked. It's obvious you don't agree with my opinion and will hold steadfast in your own beliefs and I can live with that, but you will never convince me that he wasn't wronged.
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,570
51
38
Calgary, AB
Status
Not open for further replies.

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing