What is the point of tube preamps/amps that don't sound like tubes?

flez007 · Oct 4, 2015

LL21 said:
Hang on...since when did you get Townsend Supertweeters for your Maxx3s? What is the story there? Sorry to derail, but you and I have spoken for years about SF treble, Wilson treble, my changing out my old tweeters to effectively the latest focal Ti based on/same as the Maxx 3s. What gives with the Townsend Supertweeters? What do they do and why did you get them? Most curious.

Lloyd - I have tried the Townsend super tweeters in some systems and on several speakers, they do work for some and are almost transparent on others, my take is that it depends on the room size and configuration. Interestingly enough, the best results are achieved in the BASS reproduction!!!!

flez007 · Oct 4, 2015

Andre Marc said:
I am shopping for a tube preamp. Some interesting thoughts popped into my noggin.

What is the point of purchasing and running tube preamps, or integrated/power amps that don't sound tubey?

If there is no signature tube sound why not just go solid state and get the benefit of no heat and zero maintenance?

Is it fair to think that MAYBE Solid State sound is getting better and better ? (I am a tube fan and user)....

LL21 · Oct 4, 2015

flez007 said:
Lloyd - I have tried the Townsend super tweeters in some systems and on several speakers, they do work for some and are almost transparent on others, my take is that it depends on the room size and configuration. Interestingly enough, the best results are achieved in the BASS reproduction!!!!

Really? Fascinating. What happens in the BASS due to a supertweeter? Does this supertweeter just connect via SCs to the terminals of the Wilson tweeter in the back?

flez007 · Oct 4, 2015

LL21 said:
Really? Fascinating. What happens in the BASS due to a supertweeter? Does this supertweeter just connect via SCs to the terminals of the Wilson tweeter in the back?

it runs in parallel to the input spades on the speaker side, the best performance I got was at my late Guarneris (bass-shy as you know).

LL21 · Oct 4, 2015

flez007 said:
it runs in parallel to the input spades on the speaker side, the best performance I got was at my late Guarneris (bass-shy as you know).

Thanks...just saw Stereophile and Positive Feedback review...fascinating! They come with a 1.5m cable but the speaker inputs of a big Wilson are closer to 1.85m from the speaker terminals to the top of the speaker where the tweeter needs to sit...plus the top of a Wilson is SLANTED. More work to come...

...perhaps XV1 has figured this out since his Maxx's have basically the same 2 challenges.

sly30 · Oct 4, 2015

XV-1 said:
I have never heard a tube pre amp that has sounded like a SS preamp

Tube pre amps I have owned are vtl 7.5, Cary 98p, arc refuse, cj prem 16, cj ART'S, CA GAT.

None of these tube amps have sounded like SS preamp.

I rely would like some specific examples he is thinking of.

Yes, you are right. Best SS preamps sounds better than tube preamps.

Andre Marc · Oct 4, 2015

Bill Hart said:
Andre- I think these are all shorthand labels to try to quickly describe the sound. A few others have noted that tube preamps in recent years sound far less "tubular" and that's a good thing in my estimation. I don't know what piece Fremer was referring to, but my suspicion is, he may have been underscoring that the piece did not have old school tube euphonics. My old line stage, a Lamm L2 was very fleshed out, rich in harmonics but was a solid state unit (with a massive tube power supply). So that's almost a case of a solid state unit sounding like tubes. When I sent it for service, I bought a used, highly regarded line stage to use as a stop gap for a month- I had forgotten what old school tubes sounded like- glorious, but the midrange was more of a 'blob' without all the nuances of the Lamm.
My current line stage is tube but doesn't sound like the Lamm at all, or the interim unit I used-very full bandwidth, prodigious taut bass, extremely good at articulating the details without sounding clinical. I guess in the parlance you are talking about, it is a tube preamp tending toward solid state in those respects, but it doesn't have the the fine-grained, white-ish sound I often associate (perhaps unfairly) with solid state electronics, or any bright, hyper analytical qualities. I think as much as tube gear has improved, so has the solid state stuff. But, they all sound different, and I think it is harder than ever to categorize the sound based on whether it is tube or solid state.

Bill excellent, articulate, and informative post. I agree with in general with your premise. ALL topologies have improved. And for a while, and I don't know if this still the case we had "hybrid" components that were hot..transistors and tubes working together to get the "best of both worlds".

Andre Marc · Oct 4, 2015

flez007 said:
Is it fair to think that MAYBE Solid State sound is getting better and better ? (I am a tube fan and user)....

Solid state sound has absolutely improved to the point where there are many SS amps I would own.

Andre Marc · Oct 4, 2015

sly30 said:
Yes, you are right. Best SS preamps sounds better than tube preamps.

Huh? He said nothing of the sort.

LL21 · Oct 4, 2015

Andre Marc said:
Bill excellent, articulate, and informative post. I agree with in general with your premise. ALL topologies have improved. And for a while, and I don't know if this still the case we had "hybrid" components that were hot..transistors and tubes working together to get the "best of both worlds".

Hi Andre,

Do you consider the CJ GAT a hybrid? Just curious. From their website:

"The audio circuit consists of a single amplifier stage incorporating one composite triode comprised of paralleled sections of a high-transconductance miniature dual triode vacuum tube. This amplifier stage is coupled to the preamplifier outputs through a high-current MOSFET buffer, which achieves a very low output impedance, making the GAT extremely flexible in the choice of interconnect cables and amplifiers. DC voltage is supplied to the circuit by our latest discrete voltage regulator that isolates the audio circuit from the power line by maintaining negligible impedance across the audio frequency band. Infrasonic noise is minimized by operating the tube filaments (heaters) on a dc voltage supplied by another discrete regulated power supply."

Andre Marc · Oct 4, 2015

XV-1 said:
I have never heard a tube pre amp that has sounded like a SS preamp

Tube pre amps I have owned are vtl 7.5, Cary 98p, arc refuse, cj prem 16, cj ART'S, CA GAT.

None of these tube amps have sounded like SS preamp.

I rely would like some specific examples he is thinking of.

Some specific examples are the recent McIntosh models. (They sound VERY good, btw, just not like tubes to me), the recent
Musical Fidelity preamps, and the recent batch of ARC preamps, some which have only one tube. There are a bunch of others too.

Here is an interesting quote from Michael Fremer's review of an MF preamp that I think is interesting:

"Going from the twice-as-expensive darTZeel NHB-18NS solid-state preamplifier's precise, some might say clinical, control and finely drawn images to the Primo's harmonically vivid, exuberantly drawn sound pictures was jarring and invigorating. The Primo elicited from me an immediate and enormous "Wow!" that I still felt even after weeks of listening. No solid-state device in my experience can produce the sense of effortless musical flow that all-tube designs—even poorly designed, tonally colored ones—deliver with ease".

Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/musical_fidelity_ams_primo_line_preamplifier/index.html#zadmJbh3eki8zZAh.99"

A bit cliched, but what many seem to think as well.

Andre Marc · Oct 4, 2015

LL21 said:
Hi Andre,

Do you consider the CJ GAT a hybrid? Just curious. From their website:

"The audio circuit consists of a single amplifier stage incorporating one composite triode comprised of paralleled sections of a high-transconductance miniature dual triode vacuum tube. This amplifier stage is coupled to the preamplifier outputs through a high-current MOSFET buffer, which achieves a very low output impedance, making the GAT extremely flexible in the choice of interconnect cables and amplifiers. DC voltage is supplied to the circuit by our latest discrete voltage regulator that isolates the audio circuit from the power line by maintaining negligible impedance across the audio frequency band. Infrasonic noise is minimized by operating the tube filaments (heaters) on a dc voltage supplied by another discrete regulated power supply."

As a layperson, I would say so. But I am not an engineer. But it does seem from the descriptor they are looking for that BOBW situation.

LL21 · Oct 4, 2015

Andre Marc said:
As a layperson, I would say so. But I am not an engineer. But it does seem from the descriptor they are looking for that BOBW situation.

Thanks, Andre. Whether its best of both worlds or not...i cannot say. But i can say it sounds great.

Andre Marc · Oct 4, 2015

LL21 said:
Thanks, Andre. Whether its best of both worlds or not...i cannot say. But i can say it sounds great.

Hey if it sounds great..that is all that matters!

LL21 · Oct 5, 2015

Andre Marc said:
Hey if it sounds great..that is all that matters!

Indeed! Interestingly, i found this in Tone Publications (from your 2012 Best of Report which named the CJ GAT)

"Conrad-Johnson GAT Preamplifier
$20,000
While all past flagship preamplifiers from CJ have been all-tube designs, the GAT is a hybrid design, utilizing a single 6922 (6DJ8) tube per channel with a MOSFET buffer stage, giving it the bloom you would expect from a CJ preamplifier, with a level of output drive that is usually reserved for preamplifiers with a fully balanced output stage. Tonally, right down the middle of the sound from the legendary ACT 2 and ART 3 preamplifiers. In short, excellence personified."

...so i guess it is a hybrid if the experts say so!

Andre Marc · Oct 5, 2015

LL21 said:
Indeed! Interestingly, i found this in Tone Publications (from your 2012 Best of Report which named the CJ GAT)

"Conrad-Johnson GAT Preamplifier
$20,000
While all past flagship preamplifiers from CJ have been all-tube designs, the GAT is a hybrid design, utilizing a single 6922 (6DJ8) tube per channel with a MOSFET buffer stage, giving it the bloom you would expect from a CJ preamplifier, with a level of output drive that is usually reserved for preamplifiers with a fully balanced output stage. Tonally, right down the middle of the sound from the legendary ACT 2 and ART 3 preamplifiers. In short, excellence personified."

...so i guess it is a hybrid if the experts say so!

I would say that the quoted description pretty much sums it up!

LL21 · Oct 5, 2015

Andre Marc said:
I would say that the quoted description pretty much sums it up!

Indeed...must be a great magazine!

Chuck Lee · Oct 5, 2015

You can make some changes to the sound of tube gear when you try different tubes.
Anyone can do this, but you need some skills when you try to alter the sound of solid state gear.

Everyone would agree that the best device is the one that doesn't add a "sound" .
The device should have little or no sonic signature.

But sometimes people like to add some real spice to the recipe, and vintage tube gear can be the answer.
If that lush, ripe romantic sound is what you crave, then those devices are out there.

Just remember that the warm comfy sound you are looking for, may also be covering up some of the music.
My search has always been to find gear that gets the most detail out of the music in a way that doesn't sound rough around the edges.

Today, those devices are out there, made with tubes or transistors.

Chuck Lee · Oct 5, 2015

To clarify.
I use an Esoteric sacd/cd player and the Lightspeed Attenuator ,both on a separate dedicated line into my Acoustat servo amps, which are on a second dedicated line.
A third dedicated line is for my Manley Steelhead Phono/pre(hybrid) and Sme 10 TT .

I plug/unplug the interconnects when I want to run analog or digital, so there isn't much contamination of one or the other.

Both control units, one passive, albeit unconventional, the other a hybrid more conventional ,do the job.

I'm sure both are either adding or subtracting some of the musical details, but I couldn't say that one sounded like a tube pre amp and the other sounded like solid state.

Both are different, but used the way I use them, there isn't a big gap in performance when I switch between them.
There's no big let down in sonics one way or the other.

-Kiseki Blue NS,SME V,SME10,Nordost Frey 2 tonearm cable,Manley steelhead,Esoteric X-03,Lightspeed Attenuator,Acoustat Monitor X, modded servo amps.
Three dedicated lines,20 amps to servo amps,all connectors and IC wire sourced from top of Furutech lines.
Room tuning from ASC,and GIK.
Rack is Grand Prix Audio.
All fuses are HiFi Supremes.

microstrip · Oct 5, 2015

LL21 said:
Indeed...must be a great magazine!

Yes, it is, but it was just accurately quoting the cj site ...

Three important aspects IMHO - the tube is used for gain, the FET for current buffer and the use of extreme quality power supplies to support a very simple circuit. We should also add very high quality coupling custom made teflon capacitors.

The DC filament supply is trivial in preamplfiers.

What is the point of tube preamps/amps that don't sound like tubes?

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