Rename the "Science of Audio" forum

amirm

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Amir, is there any way to disconnect the science/engineering/measurement/whatever forum from the What's New and New Posts functions? I suspect some would still follow us over there, desperate for the opportunity to be offended, but at least it would remove the final excuse for that behavior. It might even cut it down a bit.

Tim
There is by changing the forum code. But I don't think it is a good idea as I and many others find new posts there using that mechanism too.

The designation I put in the thread title I think makes it amply clear where the thread is. I even put a note in the original post saying it was in the section and reviewing the rules. So I don't think these things work. People were there raising objections because that is what they wanted to do. They did not enter that thread by accident.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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First I take exception one more time in attempting to position objectivists as non-audiophiles. We are every bit of an audiophile as much as the next person here. We love music and strive to create the best listening experience. Nothing is more unfriendly and unhelpful than to keep positioning other peers of us who have the same love as we do this way. I hope I don't have to ask you again to not do this.

You are the one trying to create extreme positions with your teasing and unfriendly comments about typical audiophile practice . And then accuse others of doing it. I hope you do not do it again.

Second, we created a new subforum specifically for objectivists to have discussions among themselves without worrying about upsetting the other camp. Now you are coming here saying what we talk about there has to pass the approval of the other camp or else they are going to complain? This is what *Steve* wrote for that forum:

"A forum where objectivists can ask questions and exchange ideas regarding the science of audio as well as anything pertaining to audio that involves tests, measurements, ABX testing etc. We have all indicated a desire to read about the science behind our hobby but this is one forum where the subjectivists will not be allowed to derail or flame an objectivist thread with the comment "I trust my ears". As a result to all members this is intended to be a flame free forum and the warning on the door will say "Enter At Your Own Risk"

Where does it read to you that as objectivists we need to not say what we want to each other and have to walk on eggshells for the other camp?

Did the few of you follow those rules? Did you avoid derailing the thread? Did you avoid flaming the objectivists? You didn't follow any of this, did you?

OK, I see. You want to have a shielded zone for free bashing of tweaks, cables and everything that does not prove its efficiency with measurements. And do not question yourself on the future consequences of such procedure. And no, I did not flame anything. I made remarks on statements made in the thread and asked questions about measurements that were happily ignored. BTW, I think we are now debating in "free" WBF. :) Please do not try to mix my positions with other people ones when answering to me.

This is the reality guys. We are all audiophiles. We want to pursue our missions as we see fit. This forum was started by Steve and I representing two distinct camps and approaches to this hobby. The forum has been and continues to be dominated by subjectivists and threads which is great. I read almost all of them, and it puts a smile on my face that we have the only mixed audience forum where they can have their discussions about any audio products without an objectivists derailing those discussions.

In reverse, every discussion of audio engineering, measurements, double blind test as of late has caused a ton of outrage. A suggestion was made to have a special forum where we, as the management team could enjoy our hobby and not deal with more protests. Steve created the forum and we started to utilize the thread. If you want editorial approval over what is written there, then you are out of line. Objectivists are not required to be politically correct in that forum.

You must have special biased filtering glasses when reading WBF. Please go on ignoring what is happening in the "subjective" section of the forum and its drift. It is your prerogative - you are owner, administrator, poster and moderator. I hope the other moderators chime on the subject, I am not interested in personal debates. I was just debating WBF.
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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OK, I see. You want to have a shielded zone for free bashing of tweaks, cables and everything that does not prove its efficiency with measurements.
That's wrong. We want a forum where we can have a discussion that does not need to worry about what you think of it. Just like when you talk about discussing suspending your DAC on a shelf without worrying about what I would think of it. You have been afforded one but are demanding that the other not be given. It is remarkable how you take for granted what we have accomplished this for the subjectivists.

And no, the topics in that forum are not limited to measurements. They are everything that would be proper to be discussed at a roundtable or meeting at Audio Engineering Society, Acoustic Society of America, IEEE Spectrum, etc. The discussions in those organizations routinely read poorly on many audiophile practices. Yet they go on as they must without interference from some of you. We like to have a small version of it here because sadly, sufficient emotional maturity to let it happen naturally where the topic comes up does not exist with some. Your suggestion is to ban any such talk no matter where. Why? Because you can't just ignore what a few people want to discuss among themselves. Not going to happen. No one will boot out one camp or the other from this forum.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...-Furutec-Demag

Science demands that you start with a hypothesis as to what is going on. It isn't good enough to attempt to show that something (e.g. demagnetising an LP) makes a change that people can hear (or not). You have to propose a possible mechanism by which it is happening and investigate that. If there is no possible explanation for a purported phenomenon then a scientific investigation fails at step 1 and there is no point going any further. Without this stipulation, homeopathy, religion etc. all have a claim on being worthy of 'scientific investigation' - which will go on forever without any concrete result.

See Faradays law. Cited in the thread. You prove my point.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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Nov 3, 2014
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Amir, is there any way to disconnect the science/engineering/measurement/whatever forum from the What's New and New Posts functions? I suspect some would still follow us over there, desperate for the opportunity to be offended, but at least it would remove the final excuse for that behavior. It might even cut it down a bit.

Tim

I know you are trying to be helpful, but it is a bad idea. It is more walking on eggshells.
 

Groucho

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Aug 18, 2012
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See Faradays law. Cited in the thread. You prove my point.

Sorry didn't go through the whole thread. Is that the hypothesis then? I'm assuming that this then leads us to measure some physical quantities and observe how the demagnetisation of the plastic disc changes them, and then we demonstrate reliably that these affect the audio waveform in certain, measurable ways..? (no listening tests, of course)

I'm sceptical I have to say!

(not to mention that, in my opinion, performing 'science' on an LP is an odd activity anyway!)
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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I know you are trying to be helpful, but it is a bad idea. It is more walking on eggshells.

You're probably right. The sub-forum is enough walking on eggshells on its own.

Tim
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Sorry didn't go through the whole thread. Is that the hypothesis then? I'm assuming that this then leads us to measure some physical quantities and observe how the demagnetisation of the plastic disc changes them, and then we demonstrate reliably that these affect the audio waveform in certain, measurable ways..? (no listening tests, of course)

I'm sceptical I have to say!

(not to mention that, in my opinion, performing 'science' on an LP is an odd activity anyway!)

Some were skeptical including myself. Some were downright hostile calling it "snake oil."As the title suggests initally I wondered what a reveiwer woul do if he used the device and heard a difference.
For obvious reasons two questions emerged"
Could a vinyl record be magnetized?
What effect would a magnetic field have on playback.?

These questions sort of evolved as the thread came under attack. I had never heard of Faradays law.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Just an idea.
At the beginnig of the thread that involves measuring a particular product we could have a poll.

Did you hear an audible difference?
yes or no
Did you listen blind or sighted?
What areas did you hear an improvement
lower noise
increased dynamics
Better sound stage
Just more enjoyable to listen to.

In order to post listener auditions a member would have to relate them to measurements.
 

bonzo75

Member Sponsor
Feb 26, 2014
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A UK forum had initiated subjectivist and objectivist sub forums a while ago. The experiment failed as we knew it would and they re merged the two. Best for both to co-mingle and be at each other's throats
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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Seattle, WA
A UK forum had initiated subjectivist and objectivist sub forums a while ago. The experiment failed as we knew it would and they re merged the two. Best for both to co-mingle and be at each other's throats
We did something like that too. The General Audio forum from what I recall was objectivists-free area but over time everything was peaceful so we got rid of that rule in the description.
 

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