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Thread: Science Thread: Review of Audioquest Jitterbug and Uptone Regen USB Conditioners

  1. #81
    Member Sponsor Addicted to Best! dallasjustice's Avatar
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    To those who criticize Amir, I say Amir isn't making claims. Uptone and AQ make plenty of claims. It's totally absurd to shift the burden of proof onto Amir. Amir is simply testing the manufacturer claims made for these two USB hubs. Amir isn't proposing a new theory or offering any product for sale.

    Also, Amir's measurements fit nicely with other respected engineers in the field. JA's measurements are very similar to Amir's work. Amir has also previously shown Miller's AQ eye pattern which shows the jitterbug slows the rise time a little. So, it seems like a picture is coming to together.

    I know this is a science thread and Amir won't step into the subjective impressions others claim. But I will. I strongly believe most, if not all, who claim an improvement with these USB hubs using decent USB DACs are being subconsciously influenced. These effects are real and play on all humans. All of us are subject to subconscious influence, placebo effect or otherwise. These effects have been carefully studied for decades in the field of psychology. I believe anyone should read the below book by professor nisbett.
    Mindware: Tools for Smart Thinking https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374112673..._6FXcwb4RDP4E6

    This book details science's work to date to investigate common thinking errors to which all of humans are susceptible.

    Michael.
    MUSIC IS GOOD

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by mansr View Post
    Imagine if Amir had measured a substantial improvement. Then his post would have been paraded about as indisputable proof of the efficacy of these gadgets, no questions asked.
    Are JohnW's measurements being paraded as indisputable proof of the effectiveness of these devices? No!
    I for one, am waiting for JohnW's measurements on his DAC's analogue outputs when he has done them. Until then what we have from him is that it is effective at greatly attenuating certain noise & jitter on the input USB signal. Finding evidence of it's effect on the analogue out will be challenging, I believe.
    Manufacturer digital products www.Ciunas.biz
    "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance – it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
    Are JohnW's measurements being paraded as indisputable proof of the effectiveness of these devices? No!
    Do you mean the colourful USB eye pattern? If so, then yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mansr View Post
    Do you mean the colourful USB eye pattern? If so, then yes.
    Are you denying that JohnW's USB eye pattern plots show the Regen is effective at greatly attenuating the low frequency noise riding on the USB signal & is also improving the USB signal jitter (in his particular setup)?

    Is this being paraded as indisputable proof that the DAC's analogue output is different?
    Manufacturer digital products www.Ciunas.biz
    "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance – it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superdad View Post
    On John Swenson's hard drive. We will release when we are ready.

    Alex C.
    --UpTone Audio LLC
    Quote Originally Posted by Purite Audio View Post
    Alex I am sure we are all looking forward to seeing those measuremtnts, hard drives can be tricky can't they!
    Keih.
    Yep, it's a difficult thing to figure out sound quality revealing tests for a product that has no effect on the data stream.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by jkeny View Post
    Are JohnW's measurements being paraded as indisputable proof of the effectiveness of these devices? No!
    I for one, am waiting for JohnW's measurements on his DAC's analogue outputs when he has done them. Until then what we have from him is that it is effective at greatly attenuating certain noise & jitter on the input USB signal. Finding evidence of it's effect on the analogue out will be challenging, I believe.
    It is possible. However, if one provides evidence even with dynamic signal, instead of a static one, would you believe it?
    I think that many people disregard carefully taken measurements no matter what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bibo01 View Post
    It is possible. However, if one provides evidence even with dynamic signal, instead of a static one, would you believe it?
    I have always been of the opinion that the effect on the analogue signal will probably be discovered to be in the area of noise modulation at a low level. Any changes in this noise will need to be shown by using a dynamic signal as input & this is why I believe it will be a challenge to measure this - the low level & the dynamic fluctuations both conspire to make it a difficult measurement
    I think that many people disregard carefully taken measurements no matter what.
    Yes, many don't understand measurements or they dismiss those that aren't supporting their pre-determined opinion.

    I had broached this before with Amir in a previous thread about Jitterbug/Regen testing measurements http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...l=1#post334420

    Originally Posted by jkeny
    I'm wondering too how you would go about testing the Regen for which the mode of operation is stated to be dependent on the signal integrity of the USB signal? What would you intend to test for & what test signals used?
    It is (relatively) easy to simulate that with extra long cables. Or less than optimal USB host implementations.

    As others have asked - have you been able to measure the 8KHz noise spike associated with the USB packet protocol - not that this has anything to do with the Regen's operation but it would show a measurement capability which would lend credence to other USB measurements of a similar nature & level - actually, I believe the effect of bad SI is in producing a modulating noise floor which I think the Regen may well improve (lessen the modulation) - measuring this will be quiet a challenge so I'm interested in your approach.
    For this analysis I will try to instrument the USB bus. But for my prior work, all I care about is what comes out of my DAC and USB adapter, and there, as I mentioned, down to -130 dbFS or so, I don't see such noises. Has anyone else measured otherwise on a high performance DAC? I am not saying it doesn't exist but I have only seen USB dependent noise in cheap sync DACs.

    Again, I think that this the interesting area that needed investigating in the now closed Measurements thread - what measurements & how they would be approached is the far more interesting (to me, anyway) topic than simply measurements Vs audibility.
    I don't know how to resolve that puzzle, nor will I try. I just like to characterize what the devices do or don't from design perspective. There seem to be different approaches with one using a USB hub and the other, analog filtering. There will be differences there of value for some people to know.

    I feel a lot of the analysis of measurements is just glossed over because it takes thought, experience & ingenuity to do "proper" measurements (I'm not getting at you, Amir, just stating my thinking about the whole area of audio measurements when it comes to digital audio)
    Just want to be clear that while I will be also testing using typical audio measurements, my goal is a circuit analysis at USB level. For sure you can't try to correlate those directly with audibility because what the DAC does with what comes out or doesn't come out of these devices is an unknown.
    So it would seem that a bad USB signal is now not being considered (talk of rogue USB ports/computers instead)
    It would seem that the 8KHz noise spike I mentioned was completely forgotten about & overlooked in the analysis of the plots - to me they are very evident in any of the Regen plots. To categorise them as jitter spurs is very mistaken, IMO
    Some of my comments do seem to have been prescient!
    Manufacturer digital products www.Ciunas.biz
    "The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance – it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin.

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Superdad View Post
    Well here is some hard data for you:
    a) The $175 REGEN is sold with a 30-day, money-back, satisfaction guarantee;
    b) To-date we have sold 1,723 units;
    c) Exactly 8 people have asked for a received a refund on their purchase. That is less than 0.5%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phelonious Ponk View Post
    There is no data there that is relevant to this discussion.

    Tim
    Why is that data not relevant? Mansr said "might be a fairly strong selection bias in favour of positive reports." I agree in that sure, just like when you look at reviews of products on Amazon, what do you see? Only the people who either love a product or hate a product--those in the generally satisfied middle don't bother to post. Same with restaurants and hotels on Yelp, etc.

    But I present hard data (can produce my e-commerce site screen shots if needed) that shows a ton sold and a minuscule asking to return. Money talks, and we know what walks…

    By the way, aside from some very mild self-promotion on my own web site's product page--most of which consists of just explaining the mechanism of how the product works and what it is intended to do--there has been close to zero "hype" by us about the product. Zero advertising, zero e-mail marketing, nothing. The REGEN sells entirely by word-of-keyboard, and the for fun push-pin map one of my sons keeps on where I ship to has us up to 45 countries at last count.

    If you want to measure jitter, try measuring it at the clock-input pin of the DAC chip. Those J-test output jitter measurements are a joke.

    Alex C.
    UpTone Audio LLC

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superdad View Post
    If you want to measure jitter, try measuring it at the clock-input pin of the DAC chip. Those J-test output jitter measurements are a joke.
    This is incorrect. The DAC has a PLL which filters jitter. If you measure the jitter prior to that at the clock input, you will be misrepresenting how much jitter will appear in the output of the DAC. It is like saying let's ignore a car has suspension and then see how good it rides. The car has suspension and you can't judge its ride without it. Same with the DAC.

    Importantly, what we hear is the analog signal of the DAC. We don't listen to the clock. We have hard enough time convincing people to pay attention to the measurements of the DAC waveform. How would it then be a better approach to then try to get them to understand correlation between some digital clock source and audio???

    So no, we don't deviate from industry standards such as measuring the analog output of the DAC. It is the right thing to do.

    Now if you are a designer, sure, you instrument the DAC clock jitter. But we are not. We are customers and care about what comes out of our DAC.

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by dallasjustice View Post
    To those who criticize Amir, I say Amir isn't making claims. Uptone and AQ make plenty of claims. It's totally absurd to shift the burden of proof onto Amir. Amir is simply testing the manufacturer claims made for these two USB hubs. Amir isn't proposing a new theory or offering any product for sale.

    Also, Amir's measurements fit nicely with other respected engineers in the field. JA's measurements are very similar to Amir's work. Amir has also previously shown Miller's AQ eye pattern which shows the jitterbug slows the rise time a little. So, it seems like a picture is coming to together.

    I know this is a science thread and Amir won't step into the subjective impressions others claim. But I will. I strongly believe most, if not all, who claim an improvement with these USB hubs using decent USB DACs are being subconsciously influenced. These effects are real and play on all humans. All of us are subject to subconscious influence, placebo effect or otherwise. These effects have been carefully studied for decades in the field of psychology. I believe anyone should read the below book by professor nisbett.
    Mindware: Tools for Smart Thinking https://www.amazon.com/dp/0374112673..._6FXcwb4RDP4E6

    This book details science's work to date to investigate common thinking errors to which all of humans are susceptible.

    Michael.
    Thank you Michael for the words of wisdom! Sad that so many minds are closed to reality and dismiss any evidence that what they think they hear is in error.

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