Speaker Oasis...Bionor

Zero000 · Sep 3, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Everything perverts, speakers pervert more than electronics.

And humans pervert the absolute truth of the performance of the speaker.

That's it then. Pervert's hobby

bonzo75 · Sep 3, 2016

User211 said:
And humans pervert the absolute truth of the performance of the speaker.

That's it then. Pervert's hobby

No wonder the phrase, old perverts

ddk · Sep 3, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Everything perverts, speakers pervert more than electronics.

It's generally accepted that SETs have the purest most natural sound and furthest from the spectrum are high powered class xyz solid state amps and there's the world in between. No matter how good the speaker what is lost and perverted upstream isn't recoverable downstream, you can't change that in any equation.

david

Mike Lavigne · Sep 3, 2016

ddk said:
It's generally accepted that SETs have the purest most natural sound and furthest from the spectrum are high powered class xyz solid state amps and there's the world in between. No matter how good the speaker what is lost and perverted upstream isn't recoverable downstream, you can't change that in any equation.

david

'generally accepted'......hummmm.

it does explain your perspective on perverted. and no reason to discuss this further.

'the world according to David'.

microstrip · Sep 3, 2016

ddk said:
It's generally accepted that SETs have the purest most natural sound and furthest from the spectrum are high powered class xyz solid state amps and there's the world in between. No matter how good the speaker what is lost and perverted upstream isn't recoverable downstream, you can't change that in any equation.

david

David,

I have not listened to all SET's, but IMHO and according to my limited experience, OTL's and some pushpull's, such as the Marantz Project T-1, owned by a good local friend, rank equal or better than my experience with SET's.

ddk · Sep 3, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
the word 'pervert' to me is wrong as it infers an absolute truth where there is not one.

With that statement you're inferring both that there's no real natural sound in the world and all electronics sound the same because they don't pervert.

Mike Lavigne said:
I'm saying that there is no 'absolute quality' of the sound of music. there is only personal opinion which can vary. which includes acoustic bass.

we might all agree on what is good and bad; but degrees of good might/likely will come down to opinion on preferred characteristics. so assigning 'perverted' to a particular approach is misguided. properly executed there is more than one legit approach to reproducing acoustic bass.

Nothing to do with personal opinion or preference, nothing to argue there but you can't tell me that when all things are equal a SET & a high powered ss amplifier reproduce the same acoustic bass the exactly same or anywhere close to each other. I'll even take both perverted but the degrees are different.

david

Mike Lavigne · Sep 3, 2016

ddk said:
Nothing to do with personal opinion or preference, nothing to argue there but you can't tell me that when all things are equal a SET & a high powered ss amplifier reproduce the same acoustic bass the exactly same or anywhere close to each other. I'll even take both perverted but the degrees are different.

david

David,

when you quoted what I said below you somehow added the part below that is highlighted which I did not write in my post you quoted;

Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne View Post

the word 'pervert' to me is wrong as it infers an absolute truth where there is not one.

With that statement you're inferring both that there's no real natural sound in the world and all electronics sound the same because they don't pervert.

I'm saying that there is no 'absolute quality' of the sound of music. there is only personal opinion which can vary. which includes acoustic bass.

we might all agree on what is good and bad; but degrees of good might/likely will come down to opinion on preferred characteristics. so assigning 'perverted' to a particular approach is misguided. properly executed there is more than one legit approach to reproducing acoustic bass.

I guess your choice to assign 'perverted' to a sort of amplifier sound you don't love is to me offensive and ill advised.

ddk · Sep 3, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
'generally accepted'......hummmm.

it does explain your perspective on perverted. and no reason to discuss this further.

'the world according to David'.

You're changing it Mike, perverted when compared to the original, nothing to do with mine or your world. Unless you live in a tent in sub saharan africa we both live in the same world and are probably familiar with the sound and qualities of real instruments in a solid acoustic space.

david

Mike Lavigne · Sep 3, 2016

ddk said:
You're changing it Mike, perverted when compared to the original, nothing to do with mine or your world. Unless you live in a tent in sub saharan africa we both live in the same world and are probably familiar with the sound and qualities of real instruments in a solid acoustic space.

david

that's exactly the question. which approach perverts the sound?

personally; I view the rolled off, lacking transient control, thick and slow, sameness veiled SET sound as perverted, using your vernacular.

and to one degree or another, they all have those characteristics inherent in their sound. they don't fully get out of the way of the music.

ddk · Sep 3, 2016

Mike Lavigne said:
David,

when you quoted what I said below you somehow added the part below that is highlighted which I did not write in my post you quoted;

Fixed the punctuation, thanks for pointing it out Mike.

Mike Lavigne said:
I guess your choice to assign 'perverted' to a sort of amplifier sound you don't love is to me offensive and ill advised.

Offending anyone wasn't my intention!

Edit-

Mike Lavigne said:
that's exactly the question. which approach perverts the sound?

Mike Lavigne said:
personally; I view the rolled off, lacking transient control, thick and slow, sameness veiled SET sound as perverted, using your vernacular.

and to one degree or another, they all have those characteristics inherent in their sound. they don't fully get out of the way of the music.

I have no problem with your preference and experience with SETs some do portray the characteristics you mention but...

david

Zero000 · Sep 3, 2016

Put your SET assertion to a forum poll, David. That'd be interesting.

microstrip · Sep 3, 2016

User211 said:
Put your SET assertion to a forum poll, David. That'd be interesting.

IMHO such opinion polls are a real perversion

!

ddk · Sep 3, 2016

User211 said:
Put your SET assertion to a forum poll, David. That'd be interesting.

Will that change anyone's opinion, preference or expand their real world knowledge and experience?

david

Zero000 · Sep 3, 2016

ddk said:
Will that change anyone's opinion, preference or expand their real world knowledge and experience?

david

No but it will see if you were right in your assertion! At least, in the limited subset of this forum.

Anyway, I'm off to a live Massive Attack gig in Bristol UK, to get me some REAL music LOL.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 3, 2016

ddk said:
Fixed the punctuation, thanks for pointing it out Mike.

no worries.

Offending anyone wasn't my intention!

I have no problem with your preference and experience with SETs some do portray the characteristics you mention but...

david

and there are SET's on my very short list of favorite all time amplifiers. because along with the SET character there is a wonderful sound.....and that natural purity. so an SET involves trade offs as do other approaches.

how does one connect most fully to the music in the way they prefer?

I do think calling alternate choices of amplifier topology negative names is provocative and divisive.

bonzo75 · Sep 3, 2016

User211 said:
No but it will see if you were right in your assertion! At least, in the limited subset of this forum.

Anyway, I'm off to a live Massive Attack gig in Bristol UK, to get me some REAL music LOL.

Let me know if they have horn like bass or panel like, or Apogee like

bonzo75 · Sep 3, 2016

Wondering why his small horn is not playing orchestral slams like the Apogees

Ron Resnick · Sep 3, 2016

“How can that be when even the best high powered/high current ss amps needed to drive these large panels lack so much in texture and resolution compared to high-end SETs and quality low/mid powered tube electronics?” — David

“Because speakers > source > amps” — Kedar

I think you guys are talking (writing) past each other and going in circles.

David considers the amplifier more important than the speaker, and he will sacrifice his favorite speaker rather than drive it with a suboptimal amplifier.

Kedar considers the speaker more important than the amplifier, and he will drive his favorite speaker with whatever amplifier works well enough so that the combination sounds, to him, better than any other amplifier with a suboptimal speaker.

David solves the system equation for the amplifier. Kedar solves the system equation for the speaker. I do not think you guys are ever going to agree on this . . .

I believe there is no objective right or wrong here. Some people prefer to make the amplifier the priority; other people prefer to make the speaker the priority.

bonzo75 · Sep 3, 2016

Ron Resnick said:
David solves the system equation for the amplifier. Kedar solves the system equation for the speaker. I do not think you guys are ever going to agree on this . . .

If David gives me his thorens reference, I will agree with him on anything, including politics

ddk · Sep 3, 2016

Ron Resnick said:
“How can that be when even the best high powered/high current ss amps needed to drive these large panels lack so much in texture and resolution compared to high-end SETs and quality low/mid powered tube electronics?” — David

“Because speakers > source > amps” — Kedar

I think you guys are talking (writing) past each other and going in circles.

David considers the amplifier more important than the speaker, and he will sacrifice his favorite speaker rather than drive it with a suboptimal amplifier.

Kedar considers the speaker more important than the amplifier, and he will drive his favorite speaker with whatever amplifier works well enough so that the combination sounds, to him, better than any other amplifier with a suboptimal speaker.

David solves the system equation for the amplifier. Kedar solves the system equation for the speaker. I do not think you guys are ever going to agree on this . . .

We've been beating the same VERY dead horse in multiple threads Ron

!

david

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