Speaker Oasis...Bionor

Ron Resnick · Sep 2, 2016

bonzo75 said:
There is no cones punch in Grand slam. The cones come in at 40Hz. The bass panel gives the punch on classical, more midbass. I agree non-apogee panels don't seem to be the best at those. .. A lot of punch comes from midbass. Never seen horns integrated remotely with subs. Something like big allnico drivers, yes. As for real estate, both big horns and big panels need that.

I always thought you needed the cone excursion impact of dynamic drivers for low frequency punch and oomph and midbass weight and richness. What I heard from Henk's Grands supports what Kedar is writing. The Grand's woofers don't come into play until about 70 Hz. Most of the weighty, powerful, dynamic midbass and lower midrange frequencies in the critical 70 Hz to 250 Hz range were coming from the woofer panels.

bonzo75 · Sep 2, 2016

FrantzM said:
b75

hope this late discussion is not OT ... Bass integration is a touchy subjects and often it is not a matter of driver technology but of understanding of what a crossover does. Bass integration is never plug and play. irrespective of subwoofers and mains excellence . Even integrated 4 -columns hybrid designs are very difficult to set-up. It takes a while, takes time and require an understanding of the room and speakers interactions. I would expect subs and horn not to work very well in show situations. One of the best tool in bass integratio is DSP, unfortunately reviled by many.
OT: Two of the best tools in bass are shunned by some and it is unfortunate: DSP and Class D amplifers..
Back to the current discussion...
From what I googled and remembered on the Apogee Grand the crossover to the cone woofer was 70 Hz not 40 Hz.. Depending on the slope (and shape) of the crossover you could well find the cones playing "up there" and the panels playing down low too ...

I have nothing against good DSP. As you know I am a big fan of what was Marty's TacT crossed over to JL, especially his Analog going through that. Some of previous "future" plans included getting the Acourate designer to fly over and integrate woofers, had I chosen a line source, like say Dali Megalines, with woofers. With Apogees, all that is now moot. I just have to buy the right flat (flat wall rectangular block), and I have no desire to consider other speakers. If for some reason that doesn't work - London real estate is always challenging - then I will get the hORNS Universum and invest more in analog.

PeterA · Sep 2, 2016

bonzo75 said:
Only in Munich, where they didn't impress, but that does not mean anything as such beasts are take time to set up, so they should be heard in Stereo's system, if he did get round to getting them.

Yes, I read about the Munich demo. I've been hoping that Stereo would post an update about his project, but I have not seen any information about whether or not the speakers have been delivered or what his amplifier solution is. That sounded like a very exciting project and I hope it came together.

FrantzM · Sep 2, 2016

Ron Resnick said:
I always thought you needed the cone excursion impact of dynamic drivers for low frequency punch and oomph. What I heard from Henk's Grands supports what Kedar is writing. The Grand's woofers don't come into play until about 70 Hz. Most of the weighty, powerful, dynamic low frequencies in the critical 70 Hz to 250 Hz range were coming from the woofer panel.

I never was of this opinion: Punch is achievable with panels too...

I objected to the point that the Apogee Panels were the best in that area. Good horns provide that in a way other driver technologies can't.

bonzo75 · Sep 2, 2016

There is also realistic punch. Woofers fire from down and sideways/front at an angle. The Apogees fire down the room like a big vertical planar rectangle that send the air down the room at you. With FRs, you have almost 7 ft panels forming a big complete rectangular wall punching at you. The rear wave also causes a superb decay. For me that's very important. I have never heard Mahler 2 like I did on the Apogees. I heard them on the FR and on the Duettas at Lissnr's. The Duettas obviously did less, but that was when I decided I will go Aps as I can do even with Duettas and don't need a gigantic room for FRs. I couldn't listen to these on Grands as I couldn't rip the CD at Henk's. And yes, I have heard Mahler live 3 times (including with Simon Rattle, Daniel Harding), so I am quite comfortable in my assessment. I also heard Holst Planets (Mars) at Henk's which was second to none, and the Genesis Drum Duet Ron wrote about. The tympani and bass drum on B's 9th first movement, Solti, not a good recording, at Lissnrs through Lampi and TRL was also the best rendition of bass slam and integration I have heard. You guys can debate. I am done.

Will I go horns given space and money? Sure - for different reasons.

Regarding your Apogees, Frantz, I did mention I did not like many Apogee set ups, only some. I don't know where yours fit in.

FrantzM · Sep 2, 2016

Got you b75

Mine weren't the greatest. I struggled with these using a pair of Classe DR-9.

I hear you, you've made your choice. Over and Out

morricab · Sep 2, 2016

bonzo75 said:
There is no cones punch in Grand slam. The cones come in at 40Hz. The bass panel gives the punch on classical, more midbass. I agree non-apogee panels don't seem to be the best at those. .. A lot of punch comes from midbass. Never seen horns integrated remotely with subs. Something like big allnico drivers, yes. As for real estate, both big horns and big panels need that.

Actually I think the Grand's cones come in it at 70Hz and they do provide that authoritative slam and weight. I have heard the Grand both with and without subs working. In the case without, the bass panel was run only with a high pass filter so that it could fully express bass...much less slam and authority without the subs. They are very good subs though and do not mask in any way the beauty of what the bass panel does so well.

morricab · Sep 2, 2016

Ron Resnick said:
I always thought you needed the cone excursion impact of dynamic drivers for low frequency punch and oomph and midbass weight and richness. What I heard from Henk's Grands supports what Kedar is writing. The Grand's woofers don't come into play until about 70 Hz. Most of the weighty, powerful, dynamic midbass and lower midrange frequencies in the critical 70 Hz to 250 Hz range were coming from the woofer panels.

Can't remember the slope between the two drivers but if it is 2nd order then you will be down at most around 15db at 140Hz. If you play the subs alone this means you will hear the mids still in there. Depending on the phase relationships you can either emphasize or deemphasize the "Slam". A sub with variable phase makes this a rather interesting experiment. You can also have a big impact on the soundstage depth, believe it or not. And this is with setting a sub below 80Hz! When I use a sub with my horns I have it set at 63Hz and adjusting the phase does all manner of things other than just around the crossover, with imaging, soundstaging and punchiness of the sound. When I was using a Behringer DCX 2496 digital xover for designing my DIY planar/hybrids dialing the phase around the xover point had profound impact as did the slope order and type. Going from 3rd to 2nd order slopes reallly greatly impacted the contribution from the woofer on the upper midrange (the xover was 300Hz) to about 1000Hz where the driver naturally rolled off. The interaction at the crossover between the drivers is a complex and I have found to be more trial by error to get right.

DaveC · Sep 2, 2016

morricab said:
Bass horns, always bass horns. I have never heard a Trio without them. The drivers don't integrate well with each other. The images are overblown and you hear the tweeter and mid working independently from the lower end. You understand what driver integration means, right?

Exactly.

bonzo75 said:
To your previous post, I have yet to listen to a horn that comes remotely close to in bass and bass punch to an apogee. In fact if I had to listen only to violins and vocals, I might take the WE 16A with GIP drivers and a light watt 300b amp. Except for weight concerns of putting 200kg on the wall in an apartment, it requires no big real estate. The universum as final horns without the need for a large space are also very good, more manageable, though for me personally downward firing woofers in an apt block can be a concern depending on how sound permeates through to below neighbor. But if I want vocals, violins, and the large dynamics and the ideal stage, for me it is a sure thing with Apogees.

Hmm, my experience is exactly opposite. I really don't like bass from panels at all. Lacks in dynamics and impact and simply can't play some material without failing spectacularly. OTOH, horn bass is the reference for me. Very few have the space or money for real bass horns though. To me horns and panels are on the very opposite ends of the spectrum wrt bass reproduction.

bonzo75 · Sep 2, 2016

DaveC said:
Hmm, my experience is exactly opposite. I really don't like bass from panels at all. Lacks in dynamics and impact and simply can't play some material without failing spectacularly. OTOH, horn bass is the reference for me. Very few have the space or money for real bass horns though. To me horns and panels are on the very opposite ends of the spectrum wrt bass reproduction.

I really do not like bass from Quads, Logans, Maggies. Analysis too leaves some bass to be desired. When you say panels, you need to qualify. Have you heard restored apogees, and which ones?

As I mentioned on another thread, I ignored panels and went towards horns, and looked for non-horn/non-panel mid-term speakers (due to space size constraints of SOTA horns), mainly to get past the bass issue. Until I heard good apogees. So, apart from Apogees, you and I are in agreement

DaveC · Sep 2, 2016

FrantzM said:
b75

hope this late discussion is not OT ... Bass integration is a touchy subjects and often it is not a matter of driver technology but of understanding of what a crossover does. Bass integration is never plug and play. irrespective of subwoofers and mains excellence . Even integrated 4 -columns hybrid designs are very difficult to set-up. It takes a while, takes time and require an understanding of the room and speakers interactions. I would expect subs and horn not to work very well in show situations. One of the best tool in bass integratio is DSP, unfortunately reviled by many.
OT: Two of the best tools in bass are shunned by some and it is unfortunate: DSP and Class D amplifers..
Back to the current discussion...
From what I googled and remembered on the Apogee Grand the crossover to the cone woofer was 70 Hz not 40 Hz.. Depending on the slope (and shape) of the crossover you could well find the cones playing "up there" and the panels playing down low too ...

Agreed, DSP + a good class D amp + a driver with very low distortion, inductance and compression. Inductance delays the impulse response and typical bass distortion you hear in most very efficient woofers with softer/lighter cones often makes the tone different from the mids. Obviously we'd all rather have massive bass horns but for most it's just not possible so a compromise is necessary. A well-designed bass reflex cabinet can perform at exceptionally high levels if designed properly.

DaveC · Sep 2, 2016

bonzo75 said:
I really do not like bass from Quads, Logans, Maggies. Analysis too leaves some bass to be desired. When you say panels, you need to qualify. Have you heard restored apogees, and which ones?

As I mentioned on another thread, I ignored panels and went towards horns, and looked for non-horn/non-panel mid-term speakers (due to space size constraints of SOTA horns), mainly to get past the bass issue. Until I heard good apogees. So, apart from Apogees, you and I are in agreement

Ok, I have not heard restored Apogees... the last full range panels I heard the membrane whacked against the frame at only moderate SPLs, apparently if the bass note ends too fast this will happen. For me that amounted to instant disqualification as a realistic option and I've never heard panel or even cone based dipole bass that I like. Bass should project energy into the room, you should FEEL it. Horns do this best but the next best is a simple bass reflex cabinet imo. It's gotta be a nice one though!

bonzo75 · Sep 2, 2016

DaveC said:
Ok, I have not heard restored Apogees... the last full range panels I heard the membrane whacked against the frame at only moderate SPLs, apparently if the bass note ends too fast this will happen. For me that amounted to instant disqualification as a realistic option and I've never heard panel or even cone based dipole bass that I like. Bass should project energy into the room, you should FEEL it. Horns do this best but the next best is a simple bass reflex cabinet imo. It's gotta be a nice one though!

Dave, we agree on everything from panels to bass horns. I think Apogees can do it better, much better, and unfortunately other panels cannot do that.

morricab · Sep 2, 2016

DaveC said:
Ok, I have not heard restored Apogees... the last full range panels I heard the membrane whacked against the frame at only moderate SPLs, apparently if the bass note ends too fast this will happen. For me that amounted to instant disqualification as a realistic option and I've never heard panel or even cone based dipole bass that I like. Bass should project energy into the room, you should FEEL it. Horns do this best but the next best is a simple bass reflex cabinet imo. It's gotta be a nice one though!

I have heard both kinds of bass, restored and unrestored and the difference is not huge. The ONLY full range planar speaker that i have heard and/or owned that had true slam that made people say WOW was the Acoustat Spectra 4400s. Part of that was compared to some later electrostats, Acoustat used a thicker film (12 micron I think) I think. Anyway, the bass from those was otherworldly...better than the bass from my IRS Betas, better than my Genesis VIs, better than I have heard from even big horns most of the time. Don't ask me why other than the thicker film, the relatively large excursions allowed and the large surface area. I haven't properly heard Soundlabs so maybe they do it too but they are faceted and I think this will take away from the ability to do so. The real beast must be the Acoustat 6600, which has 6 panels total (3 above and 3 below). My Spectras had 4 panels (2 above and 2 below). I was running mine as well with Spectra 2200s (2 panels side-by-side) that were taking from 100Hz and up.

For the record, I have head Full-ranges restored, Scintillas restored, STudio Grands restored, Divas Restored and Grands restored. I have heard all of those unrestored except Full-ranges. I have also heard unrestored, Stages, Caliper Signatures, Duetta Signatures and Centaur Majors.

Other planars owned: AudioStatic ES100, STAX ELS-F81, Acoustat 1+1, Apogee Caliper Signature, Infinity IRS Beta.

microstrip · Sep 2, 2016

Long ago I had the complete Krell system (KPS25sc + MCX750 monoblocks) in my room and connected them to the Soundlab's (seen against the lateral walls). Drums and cymbals had unbelievable punch and slam - although not the bass extension of the Krell LAT1000's. With some systems you feel the bass in your stomach and trousers - with the Soundlab's percussion was so fast and dynamic that the tendency was to blink the eyes. In most systems you feel bass decays - with Soundlabs properly amplified in the proper room you also feel the rise time of bass wave.

And yes, at the end of the season I had to have the mylar replaced in one speaker - but the occasional 1000 Watts of the Krells in the panel were really addictive.

(The grey panels are not speakers - just RPG Abffusors)

bonzo75 · Sep 2, 2016

1000w wow! - Recently a guy here who has the duettas had the 750mcx. He replaced them with Gryphon Antileon Sig and says he loved the amp much more. But it is much lower power. In fact he loved the amp so much he has just bought a mephisto this week. Unfortunately he can't do weekends, so I will have to wait till Dec to listen to it.

Believe High Fidelity · Sep 2, 2016

Subscribed. This is popcorn worthy

MRJAZZ · Sep 2, 2016

morricab said:
I have heard both kinds of bass, restored and unrestored and the difference is not huge. The ONLY full range planar speaker that i have heard and/or owned that had true slam that made people say WOW was the Acoustat Spectra 4400s. Part of that was compared to some later electrostats, Acoustat used a thicker film (12 micron I think) I think. Anyway, the bass from those was otherworldly...better than the bass from my IRS Betas, better than my Genesis VIs, better than I have heard from even big horns most of the time. Don't ask me why other than the thicker film, the relatively large excursions allowed and the large surface area. I haven't properly heard Soundlabs so maybe they do it too but they are faceted and I think this will take away from the ability to do so. The real beast must be the Acoustat 6600, which has 6 panels total (3 above and 3 below). My Spectras had 4 panels (2 above and 2 below). I was running mine as well with Spectra 2200s (2 panels side-by-side) that were taking from 100Hz and up.

For the record, I have head Full-ranges restored, Scintillas restored, STudio Grands restored, Divas Restored and Grands restored. I have heard all of those unrestored except Full-ranges. I have also heard unrestored, Stages, Caliper Signatures, Duetta Signatures and Centaur Majors.

Other planars owned: AudioStatic ES100, STAX ELS-F81, Acoustat 1+1, Apogee Caliper Signature, Infinity IRS Beta.

Back in the day I had two pair of Acoustat 3,s that I gutted. I than had some special oak racks made and stacked them....in essence a pair of Acoustat Specta 6600. It was an imposing looking system, about 8 feet tall and almost 3 feet wide, as I recall. Yes they had fabulous bass and could really crank. Wish I had taken pics of some of the systems I used to run back than but for the most part I didn't.
Cheers

Zero000 · Sep 3, 2016

morricab said:
Ah, so your issues are with the visuals and what you THINK it should sound like. You do understand the concept of an exponential horn right? It is not a vented box...very different. The size of the mouth has nothing to do with the driver size but the length of the horn and the kind of exponential taper. It is no issue for an 8 inch driver to be driving a 3 meter long horn...it should have a mouth like this. Of course if the horn dimensions are done poorly it will have issues but I can almost guarantee you that regardless of the volume level that driver is barely moving, which means it is being loaded correctly. I see this with my own horns...if there is a excursion of more than 1 mm I would be surprised even with bass heavy music like Yello or Bjork.

The problem with the Living Voice Air partner and Air Scout is that the horn is too short to make any real bass. They are dead by about 60-70Hz. I know this for a fact because a friend of mine has the Air Scouts and they make no deep bass...most mini monitors have deeper bass. They must really be close to a back wall and must have a couple of really good subs to fill out the bottom. This is why the Living Voice successor to the Air Partner is teamed up with huge subs.

If you listen carefully to the Aries Cerat you will hear a level of texture and modulation in the bass that most box speakers gloss over. Big planars can probably do it better still in terms of texture and detail in the bass but not with big SS amps and not with the same punch as a good horn.

Er... nothing to do with what it looks like Brad.

More info on the Air Partner here.

http://website.lineone.net/~empson/featuring_Vitavox.html

I remember that Air Partner quite well, even though it was a long time ago.

Why? Because my instant reaction was "god, that sounds really odd!!!". "Echoey", "bloaty", and uncontrolled are words I'd use to describe it. Putting it simply, I just think the relatively small surface area of the driver compared to the throat aperture, and the fact that the air is being forced to make a U-turn places quite a bit of stress on the driver. It can't really control the air and that is exactly what it sounds like.

The Apogee bass panel mates/couples directly with the outside world, and has sufficient force per unit area over a much larger area to cope.

The downside of the Apogee bass panel is limited excursion, and once that limit is met no amount of power will really help. In this situation the speaker will literally drink any excess power.

There is also more suck than push. The magnets are on the one side of the panel. So there's more force moving towards the magnets than away from them.

The Leonardo tried to solve that problem. I've not heard it, but it does so at the expense of losing a massive amount of surface area at the front of the driver.

Aries Cerat · Sep 3, 2016

Sorry for the OT but...

I can leave aside the comments about the perception of the bass quality through YT...opinions is one thing,and talking about things you have no knowledge of,is another.

1.How can you tell from the video,what the throat area is?
2.Do you even know what the throat is?
3.What is "relatively small area" means? What is the required Sd parameter best suited for this horn?
4.Have you ever seen 4'' diaph compression drivers loaded with 30 foot bass horn? Somebody should tell them wrong.
5.Have you ever designed a bass horn?Please guide us through your driver selection process.
6.What is the BL equivalent of a bass panel of a magnetostat? Do you think it is higher than the 8'' driver and that " has sufficient force per unit area over a much larger area to cope?
7.What is the sensitivity of a magnetostat bass panel?Do you think it has something to do with "has sufficient force per unit area over a much larger area to cope"?

There are questions in all friendly tone,just trying to learn something new here.

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