Should I be depressed that my headphone cans sound better than my main speakers?

treitz3 said:

Guys, it's just a friendly discussion. Let's not instantly put our war outfits on and get into defense mode.

IMO, to answer the thread title? Yes. That is, if you want your main rig to be better. Headphones have some great characteristics with the reproductive effort, much like speakers in a main rig do. Both of them come with some outstanding attributes, compromises and their own set of "issues" to deal with.
Tom

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All I would add is that I wouldn't go onto a sweetgrass baskets forum and argue that bamboo is better, with lengthy explanations. It's common sense.

Billy Shears said:

So you are saying that you can reproduce a soundstage as i described above over a set of headphones?

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I can't argue about which facsimile reproduction is more "accurate". All I can tell you is to follow my clues and experience the amazing natural sound of a properly eq'd headphone, but only if that's your interest to enjoy that experience.

Mike Lavigne said:

generalizations stated as facts about things draw interest. the OP asked the specific question. and so the thread is about speakers verses headphones.

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It's correct to compare them to explore the interesting differences. I've had many Stereophile-recommended speakers, so I have that background. But I didn't get that message at all from the posts here saying in effect that "headphones do it wrong". That's not appropriate for a headphone enthusiast forum.

dalethorn said:

I can't argue about which facsimile reproduction is more "accurate". All I can tell you is to follow my clues and experience the amazing natural sound of a properly eq'd headphone, but only if that's your interest to enjoy that experience.

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I never claimed it was more accurate its just the way music that is well mixed sounds when you reproduce it over a set of speakers be it in the studio or at home. I am not trying to detract from what ever it is you are doing. If that is the way you enjoy to listen then that needs no justification the problem is i cant.


All i wanted to do is point out the glaring difference between headphones and speakers. That is not a "better or worse" statement

dalethorn said:

Most headphones are that way without equalization. In the past 4 years I've devoted most of my time to correcting the (mostly) resonance-induced colorations my headphones (100 of them) have, and the result is a natural sound with a beautiful soundstage and imaging. My curves are pictured here in Audioforge pages 1 to 5.

http://dalethorn.com/Photos.html

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Please go outside and feel the warmth of the sun on your skin and check out some of natures offerings!

Hi-FiGuy said:

Please go outside and feel the warmth of the sun on your skin and check out some of natures offerings!

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Trolling much?

Edit: (heh) as I write these replies I'm sitting in a public park in South Carolina overlooking the ocean. The sheer amount of life all around is amazing, and I participate in most of it.

treitz3 said:

Mr. Dalethorn, this thread touches on a comparison between speakers and headphones. If one is to answer the OP's question, surely some characteristics and the discussion of what speakers can do will enter into the discussion. There is no way around this.

It's like someone on a Chevy forum asking if the Mustang is better than the Camaro. You can bet your bottom dollar that some points about the mustang's characteristics will be brought up....good, bad or even lengthy. Remember, it's just a friendly discussion.

Now can we please move on to actually discussing the thread topic and get off this one? Thanks in advance.

Tom

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I did say that in fact. Interesting comparisons are healthy.

dalethorn said:

No, that's the wrong way. Very few people are aware of the natural sound capability of their headphones, since very few headphones are tuned anywhere near correctly. I can go on at length about this, but until you experience it, it's going to be a foreign concept. Colorations kill the soundstage. Why? I don't know exactly, but when you've heard the fix it's breathtaking.

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I would love to have a deeper dive into this in a separate thread. Do you mind doing that and explaining what you used to correct headphone response? I must confess that I have always used headphones "naked" with no EQ. Like to learn more .

Billy Shears said:

I never claimed it was more accurate its just the way music that is well mixed sounds when you reproduce it over a set of speakers be it in the studio or at home. I am not trying to detract from what ever it is you are doing. If that is the way you enjoy to listen then that needs no justification the problem is i cant.

All i wanted to do is point out the glaring difference between headphones and speakers. That is not a "better or worse" statement

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I do understand that you hear/see a glaring difference. My thought for you is to see that it's really not a glaring difference if you correct the headphone properly. Several headphone vendors have stated their intent to add a "room feel" to their product, for users who want that. All of that is good. My contribution is to suggest a better way.

amirm said:

I would love to have a deeper dive into this in a separate thread. Do you mind doing that and explaining what you used to correct headphone response? I must confess that I have always used headphones "naked" with no EQ. Like to learn more .

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Here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ural-sound-and-soundstage&p=340757#post340757

Whatmore said:

What price speaker setup is required to better the $10k headphone one?

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My Alexia's sound better than my $10k headphone setup. That's why mastering engineers do their work with speakers in a room than on headphones.

I am still having trouble with this better and worse thing . Speakers and headphones are not comparable for me because what they do is just so different.... maybe you could compare stuff like low level resolution and frequency extension but that would be about it...

tomelex said:

Yes, headphones should only be compared against headphones and speakers against speakers, however, I still feel that headphones can resolve details better than speakers, just for one example, a speaker system, any big one with all kinds of speakers in each speaker, is going to smear or blur the stereo image some, its just physics, and blumlein recognized and said this. That's just one example and that's enough besides the obvious imaging and depth ideas with basic headphone listening on a recording designed for speakers (as most are) so they are different when it comes to stereo effect and imaging and depth portrayal by design due to the recording being designed for speakers.

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have you ever looked at the 'tricks' required to get any sort of accurate sound from the diaphragm of the headphone transducer to the ear? it's not pretty. the inside of the ear is not designed to have the source of the sound so close. so there is an EQ needed that is not trivial. even measuring headphones requires special gear.

so for every speaker design challenge there is a different but important one for headphones too.

amirm said:

I would love to have a deeper dive into this in a separate thread. Do you mind doing that and explaining what you used to correct headphone response? I must confess that I have always used headphones "naked" with no EQ. Like to learn more .

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Yes, same here...that sounds like a super interesting topic...fully subscribed. :b

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What is in the recording and what comes out (either from the headphones, nearfield monitors or farfield loudspeakers) is related to many things...the music recording first (mics and all), the room where it is reproduced (of course), the direct and first reflected sounds, the acoustics of the space, our own ears, the quality of the cans and its headpone preamp and amp, the quality of the transducers, etc.

Physics would dictate that in a less than perfect world a pair of quality headphones are the best tool for monitoring the music recording, and if recording's own ambiance and imaging and "live feeling" is missing from the cans in compararison to a "maison" stereo hi-fi sound system (ultra hi-end setup), then I'm all ears to expand my knowledge into the world of the most accurate music reproduction...be it from very close (cans) to mid-close (nearfield music studio monitor speakers) and up to regular sound rigs (from say 8 to 16 feet from a pair of hi-end loudspeakers), and all @ the perfect volume level...so that nothing is missing.

I would like to hear more from Mike (Lavigne), because Mike had experienced them on a high level field.

But I'm all in with Amir here in regard to recreating the music ambiance from listening with a pair of headphones...through equalization (analog or digital DSP).
It's like using Dirac Live for your normal stereo rig...in order to compensate for the room acoustic deficiencies...correction and equalization through digital DSP filters.
And on the other hand the most purist audiophiles won't even consider such a "manipulated" thought to enter their mind. ...Like some of the true analog master guru listeners.

If you play the best open-tape (reel) through a pair of hi-end headphones, can you hear more details than from a pair of hi-end loudspeakers?
And two, what are the process (proceedings) tools used in order to reproduce the most intimate acuity of the music recording?

Last, this thread could be as good as any new created one...because we are already here and we are already rolling. :b

Have there been professional tests to find out what is the most music recording detail retrieval system between loudspeakers and headphones setups?

NorthStar said:

Have there been professional tests to find out what is the most music recording detail retrieval system between loudspeakers and headphones setups?

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I haven't seen the topic taken head on. I know of one test of high-resolution audio where the listeners with top scores used headphones.

NorthStar said:

Yes, same here...that sounds like a super interesting topic...fully subscribed. :b

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Here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ural-sound-and-soundstage&p=340757#post340757

amirm said:

I haven't seen the topic taken head on. I know of one test of high-resolution audio where the listeners with top scores used headphones.

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One good entry point is the 2-mic recordings by some of the RCA Living Stereo people in the 50's. Another good entry point would be the 1970's flurry of 'binaural' recordings. Another is discussion at Stereophile et al regarding modern recordings that accomodate both. Lastly would be AES papers. There's no doubt that headphones heavily dominate listening today per capita, so the notion that modern recordings or remixes ignore headphones doesn't compute.

dalethorn said:

Here: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...ural-sound-and-soundstage&p=340757#post340757

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Yes, thanks, I am reading it as we speak.

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* If we can use room acoustic equalization systems and room treatments to improve the sound, then I don't see why not we can do the same with headphones...only that with headphones the only room is the recording venue itself.