Should I be depressed that my headphone cans sound better than my main speakers?

cjf

Well-Known Member
Nov 19, 2012
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I've recently picked up a set of Mr. Speakers Alpha Prime cans to use mainly at work. I'm using the cans in balanced mode in combination with a Pono Player and Moon Audio Blue Dragon cable.

The sound of this combo is nothing short of startling despite the Pono player being a little underpowered for the cans. I'm hearing things I never knew existed in very familiar albums. While this is great it's also a bit depressing at the same time when I consider the cost comparison between the portable setup and my main rig.

Granted, the headphones can't come close to reproducing the same scale of the main rig but it certainly seems to have a leg up on detail retrieval.

I keep telling myself that this outcome is to be expected when dealing with very good headphones considering there immediate nature of being attached directly to my ears but it still bugs me a bit when I think about it.

Has anyone else experienced the same thing when comparing their main rig to headphones? I'm especially curious to hear the experience from those who have top quality main rigs and have done a similar comparison.

My main rig consists of the following:

Classe CP-800 PreAmp
4 X Hypex NCore NC400 MonoBlocs
Meitner MA-1 DAC
B&W 803 D2 towers

Could it be that what I'm hearing is manly the differences between a Planer Magnetic Speaker verses a box speaker? I wonder, as I've never really heard a good Planer Mag setup before until these cans arrived.

Thanks for any info and experiences you can provide
 

Mike Lavigne

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 25, 2010
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is there any doubt that what you say is correct, nope, headphones produce detail like nothing else, for a lot of technical reasons. enjoy it, and when you want to feel it, turn up your speakers.

not true at all. speakers can produce more detail than the best headphones. however; lots of work must be done to get speakers to actually perform optimally to be able to give you all that detail. OTOH headphones are essentially plug and play. I could certainly understand why most people might believe that headphone have more detail.....like any generalization it is a reflection of your or their reference, not necessarily the actual facts of the matter.
 
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amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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I am with Mike on this one. For the longest time my Stax headphones and amps were ahead of speakers and rooms I had. But now it is the other way around and I don't use my headphones much.

That said, they sound different enough that preference could play a strong role here.
 

Whatmore

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
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not true at all. speakers can produce more detail than the best headphones. however; lots of work must be done to get speakers to actually perform optimally to be able to give you all that detail. OTOH headphones are essentially plug and play. I could certainly understand why most people might believe that headphone have more detail.....like any generalization it is a reflection of your or their reference, not necessarily the actual facts of the matter.

I've invested in top level headphones and headphone amps to investigate exactly the question you are addressing. so I've done the work to be able to speak to the issue.

and to reach the top level of headphone detail takes over a $10k investment; the best, most detailed headphones I used were the top of line Stax 009's along with the Headamp BHSE (Blue Hawaii Special Edition) which I compared to my big rig and it did not get to that level in terms of detail; and of course, was way short in most other areas. no doubt that there might be some other headphones which are slightly better than what I had. but not much better. and my big rig was on another level.

at lower levels of headphone investment and speaker rigs I'm sure there are situations where specific headphones out-detail specific speaker systems.

What price speaker setup is required to better the $10k headphone one?
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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I just cannot listen to 'Mad Max: Fury Road' on Blu-ray through my Sennheiser stereo headphones, just no way Jose! ...I'd be missing the full "all-around" cinematic sound immersion.

For stereo music listening...serious monitoring of my own music playing and other serious music recordings (analytic mode), yes.
But you cannot wear cans for long periods of time...or you'll suffer the consequences. Open baffle loudspeakers are a more safe natural environment.
Humans were not created to wear cans.

And yes, it can lead to depression if not under control...like anything else in life...like two wives. ;-)

Also, I don't believe that any loudspeaker can resolve as much definition and resolution as a good pair of cans.
The main essence is the balance.

But what do I truly know...my experience is so limited...I am still very young...and my opinion doesn't really count...like my bank account. :-D

* I like the thread's title...it has 'punch' (cardiac arrest).
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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headphones avoid what is by far the biggest issue faced by speakers, your room

My headphones used to sound more detailed than my speakers, but now that I have thoroughly addressed room issues with acoustic room treatment it is the other way around.
 

NorthStar

Member
Feb 8, 2011
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My headphones used to sound more detailed than my speakers, but now that I have thoroughly addressed room issues with acoustic room treatment it is the other way around.

Can it be really...or is it all in your head? ...Way of speech...but sincere question still.
 

Al M.

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Sep 10, 2013
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Can it be really...or is it all in your head? ...Way of speech...but sincere question still.

Short answer: yes.

I was quite surprised myself.
 

Whatmore

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
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Melbourne, Australia
My headphones used to sound more detailed than my speakers, but now that I have thoroughly addressed room issues with acoustic room treatment it is the other way around.

I do not doubt your experience but for the vast majority of us it is simply not possible to eliminate the room as effectively as cans can
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Air is a natural filter when it comes to high frequencies. Transient info is heavy on the high frequencies even tympanies. Funny enough the drop off from direct sound is low but drop off in reflected sound is much steeper given the said properties of air as the distances travelled by the reflected sounds are much much greater. So there are two things at play really. It is easy to get the same level of transient detail on a system easily at par or better than cans. What is more difficult is getting the same level of ambient information from the recording. It may be even impossible so, at least what I do, is attempt to replace things such as recorded room tone with a native roomtone that is neutral and of even coverage. If successful, it may not be exactly what you might hear from a pair of headphones or near field monitors but what you can get can be close enough that even the most OC can easily listen past. Think of it as not cheating physics but rather using physics to cheat. You aren't eliminating the room but treating it as an integral component. It is the management of impulse reverberation times by frequency and zones rather than for example steady state frequency spread. (i'm not saying the latter doesn't matter because when it comes to the midrange this certainly does)

At the end of the day, the biggest hurdle is the room's noise floor. When you're left only with the option of turning up the volume to get over the room's noise that's when we get all sorts of problems. We get strain manifested in all sorts of ways from thermal distortion in coils and output devices, diaphragm breakup, cabinet or panel frame resonances, bringing the levels of electronic grunge up, the room itself ringing exciting modes and creating more destructive levels of filtering, the list goes on and on.

If one is left without the option to treat his room to extreme levels, by which I mean being able to use only everyday items to reflect, defract/diffuse or absorb for whatever reason, the solution is simple and free. Sit closer and set your speakers up closer together too at the very limit of where they still remain coherent. Will it beat headphones? Maybe , maybe not. Whatever the case, the gap should close.
 

Billy Shears

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2015
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I am surprised no one has mentioned the main problem with Headphones: NO Soundstage, NO Stereo Imaging
In every other aspect they may indeed be better, but for me i am missing half of the experience when listening to Headphones...
 

dalethorn

Headphone user
Dec 9, 2012
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dalethorn.com
I am surprised no one has mentioned the main problem with Headphones: NO Soundstage, NO Stereo Imaging. In every other aspect they may indeed be better, but for me i am missing half of the experience when listening to Headphones...

Most headphones are that way without equalization. In the past 4 years I've devoted most of my time to correcting the (mostly) resonance-induced colorations my headphones (100 of them) have, and the result is a natural sound with a beautiful soundstage and imaging. My curves are pictured here in Audioforge pages 1 to 5.

http://dalethorn.com/Photos.html
 

Billy Shears

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2015
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Most headphones are that way without equalization. In the past 4 years I've devoted most of my time to correcting the (mostly) resonance-induced colorations my headphones (100 of them) have, and the result is a natural sound with a beautiful soundstage and imaging. My curves are pictured here in Audioforge pages 1 to 5.

http://dalethorn.com/Photos.html

So you are somehow managing to create a balanced cross-feed between the two channels to create a soundstage and imaging like you would hear it from speakers?
 

dalethorn

Headphone user
Dec 9, 2012
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Cleveland TN.
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So you are somehow managing to create a balanced cross-feed between the two channels to create a soundstage and imaging like you would hear it from speakers?

No, that's the wrong way. Very few people are aware of the natural sound capability of their headphones, since very few headphones are tuned anywhere near correctly. I can go on at length about this, but until you experience it, it's going to be a foreign concept. Colorations kill the soundstage. Why? I don't know exactly, but when you've heard the fix it's breathtaking.
 

dalethorn

Headphone user
Dec 9, 2012
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Cleveland TN.
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my Evolution MM3's/dart 108 were equal to the Stax 009/Headamp BHSE combo in fine detail. at current list prices for the speaker that is $70k + $23k for the amp. my Evolution MM7's/dart 458 monos are 'clearly' more detailed than that same combo. that's $200k for the speakers,$160k for the amps at list price for that combo. but speakers do so much more than just fine detail. it's just one aspect of what a speaker does. how many people are going to have a $10k+ headphone-amp combo? we are not talking about cables or sources here, just the cans and the amp. how many people even have had that experience? not many.
so the normal 'very good' $500-$1500 set of headphones and $1000 headphone amp is not even in the neighborhood of good quality high end speakers and amps in terms of detail. that 'headphones have more detail' generalization is not correct. if you think it is then your speaker/amp reference is just not very good, or your speaker set-up precision and room tuning needs some work.

headphones are a great thing, and appropriate tool for a specific task. they allow high end listening in many practical situations, and bring it at real world costs. I think that headphones also allow for young people to experience fine audio and hopefully bring more people into our hobby. but they also have their limitations. a few years ago I decided to discover for myself just how close headphones could come to my big rig and invested lots of time and over $20k into my investigations. and I got my answer.

Would I be wrong to ask why so much energy is being expended here to disparage headphones on a headphone enthusiast forum?

This is especially puzzling given the absurd notion that large loudspeaker drivers across the room provide more detail than small speakers next to the ear. I know better than that.
 

Billy Shears

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2015
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No, that's the wrong way. Very few people are aware of the natural sound capability of their headphones, since very few headphones are tuned anywhere near correctly. I can go on at length about this, but until you experience it, it's going to be a foreign concept. Colorations kill the soundstage. Why? I don't know exactly, but when you've heard the fix it's breathtaking.

I have no doubt that the geting wrid of colorations is good but we dont seem to be talking about the same thing. I mean a soundstage that streches out IN FRONT of you where you can clearly locate a guitar to the right, a bass and drumset back left and vocals in the middle. I have never heard that on headphones because it is not possible if you isolate the left and right Channel.
 

treitz3

Super Moderator
Staff member
Dec 25, 2011
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Guys, it's just a friendly discussion. Let's not instantly put our war outfits on and get into defense mode. ;)

IMO, to answer the thread title? Yes. That is, if you want your main rig to be better. Headphones have some great characteristics with the reproductive effort, much like speakers in a main rig do. Both of them come with some outstanding attributes, compromises and their own set of "issues" to deal with.

Tom
 

dalethorn

Headphone user
Dec 9, 2012
476
7
18
63
Cleveland TN.
dalethorn.com
I have no doubt that the geting wrid of colorations is good but we dont seem to be talking about the same thing. I mean a soundstage that streches out IN FRONT of you where you can clearly locate a guitar to the right, a bass and drumset back left and vocals in the middle. I have never heard that on headphones because it is not possible if you isolate the left and right Channel.

We're not talking about the same thing only because you haven't heard what a proper EQ does. It makes the sound natural, but of course you wouldn't know because you haven't experienced it. I understand your disbelief, but you should know that headphone cues have been part of many recordings since the 1950's, and it's ubiquitous today. The info for a great natural soundstage is there and all you have to do is hear it.
 

Billy Shears

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2015
255
1
150
We're not talking about the same thing only because you haven't heard what a proper EQ does. It makes the sound natural, but of course you wouldn't know because you haven't experienced it. I understand your disbelief, but you should know that headphone cues have been part of many recordings since the 1950's, and it's ubiquitous today. The info for a great natural soundstage is there and all you have to do is hear it.

So you are saying that you can reproduce a soundstage as i described above over a set of headphones?
 

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