hORNS Universum 3 MKII

bonzo75 · Nov 1, 2018

One day I will write in more detail. Bot after comparing Thoress hybrids, Silvercore 833c, bespoke 211s by a small custom manufacturer called Audio Detail in the UK who owns these Unis and is a distro for Ming Da, and having compared other amps on these speakers in this room before, now I prefer Universum to the Animas where one wants greater transparency and differences in listening to recordings. The Animas still have great tone and timbre and impact, but they keep it consistent across recordings while the Unis really show differences. I knew the Uni was more transparent before, but now as old Vinyl recordings have become more important to me, this aspect has gained much more in importance.

bonzo75 · Nov 1, 2018

Luckily this came on a back to back of comparing the Silvercore 833cs to NAF 2a3, Riviera 50w hybrids, Jadis DA88s, and a small German brand with a 20w amp using 550 valves. Those were done on Devore Orangutans and Lansche. On the Orangutans the NAF worked the best, the Lansche needs more headroom. But that significantly scratches my SET itch, now I need to find Art Audio PX25 for appropriate compares. Bad itch.

marslo · Nov 1, 2018

Ked ,

Don’t you miss deep bass with Universum?

bonzo75 · Nov 1, 2018

If by deep bass you mean the kind that trio bass horns do, or which Tang's Cessaro bass channels would do if he put them on

then these don't do that.

However they have no issues playing to the same levels as Anima, and if I compare them to say stat hybrids I would prefer these. They don't lack at all in things like Midbass density or slam.

For orchestral, jazz, piano, cello, tympani, they are perfect. Possibly not the top choice for rock or electronica though I don't mind listening to rock on these. Yes there are a couple of DIY horns I prefer sonically to these, which have awesome bass with two 18 inch woofers on either speaker firing at the listener. But I don't miss bass here while listening to these

In 2014 in Munich they sounded anemic and thin. Dunno why. Since 2016 I haven't heard that issue. 2016 was the year that Brad, Christoph, another guy who has owned apogees for 25 years (currently owns scintillas) and I heard these independently at Munich and preferred them.

marslo · Nov 1, 2018

Thank you, I listen very little to rock ,more to some pop like Jackson, mainly to jazz and classical.
But some pop recordings require a punch in 28-30 Hz areas, where my Duo Mezzo XD are fantastic. Pls listen to « Keep the faith « from Dangerous as a test, it must be impressive otherwise the speaker is not perfect.
Did you hear to the well tuned new range of AG Duos, especially to Mezzo XD?
Imho Trios miss often the integration which is much more easy to attain with Duo Mezzo with short basshorn, it is my experience from shows and listening session at AG HQ.
Sure ,the potential of Trios is bigger but system become more complex and thus not suitable for living rooms.
I like Universum for which I will listen to again in Warsaw but in my opinion without separate subwoofers they are not at Mezzo XD level as far as deep bass and slam are concered. And when you put subs with Uni as Shakti did the integration must be even more difficult than with Trios .
My final speaker within a few years will be probably something like Duo Primo or Unis with better bass section.

bonzo75 · Nov 1, 2018

Unless Shakti pulls off a stunner, I would not try to integrate subs with these nor do I, or those who who like them, feel the need to. Trios shock and excite me by their sheer dynamism, speed, wham bam. The other horns I like including this have better tone. I also feel these are more transparent to upstream changes and vinyl. They also appeal to my brain's stats corner by similar decay and the wide back layered stage

marslo · Nov 1, 2018

Ok , understand your point, vinyl is less important for me , just a weekend distraction.

bonzo75 · Nov 1, 2018

marslo said:
Ok , understand your point, vinyl is less important for me , just a weekend distraction.

Lol.

But yes, all these horns are very different

morricab · Nov 1, 2018

marslo said:
Thank you, I listen very little to rock ,more to some pop like Jackson, mainly to jazz and classical.
But some pop recordings require a punch in 28-30 Hz areas, where my Duo Mezzo XD are fantastic. Pls listen to « Keep the faith « from Dangerous as a test, it must be impressive otherwise the speaker is not perfect.
Did you hear to the well tuned new range of AG Duos, especially to Mezzo XD?
Imho Trios miss often the integration which is much more easy to attain with Duo Mezzo with short basshorn, it is my experience from shows and listening session at AG HQ.
Sure ,the potential of Trios is bigger but system become more complex and thus not suitable for living rooms.
I like Universum for which I will listen to again in Warsaw but in my opinion without separate subwoofers they are not at Mezzo XD level as far as deep bass and slam are concered. And when you put subs with Uni as Shakti did the integration must be even more difficult than with Trios .
My final speaker within a few years will be probably something like Duo Primo or Unis with better bass section.

Is Duo Primo somehow better than your Mezzo? I like the larger AG speakers; however, I recently heard the new Uno XD and it was not good IMO. There was a distinct horn coloration in the male voices that surprised me because with Duo and up AGs I don't hear this. I also heard it a few years ago with another small AG. Something about their horn at those sizes seems to be not right. I would love to hear the Mezzo though with a good SET (I heard them only with Esoteric SS gear and that was BAD) because I heard the Duo Omega with good tubes and it was fantastic. What do you think is the advantage of the short horn bass compared to the lower model conventional bass? Clearly the horn is too short to boost the bass but it must be doing something...if so, what? Upper bass, lower mids? Not clear to me.

morricab · Nov 1, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Unless Shakti pulls off a stunner, I would not try to integrate subs with these nor do I, or those who who like them, feel the need to. Trios shock and excite me by their sheer dynamism, speed, wham bam. The other horns I like including this have better tone. I also feel these are more transparent to upstream changes and vinyl. They also appeal to my brain's stats corner by similar decay and the wide back layered stage

What I don't get about the Universum design is how high the bass goes into the mids (over 300Hz) and that this is coming from a floor firing driver. Not clear how they get an integrated sound this way and I would think that what the floor is made out of will have a profound impact on the sound quality of the mids. A carpeted floor might absorb way too much midrange information and make the speaker sound hollow or muffled. Christoph's stone floor likely is a good material as much of the mids will be bounced out into the room. Localization seems to be centered on the big mid horn so it doesn't impact imaging as much as I would think tonality. A wood floor would perhaps be different again.

bonzo75 · Nov 1, 2018

Good point. Yes flooring will have a big effect. It is easy to not have a carpet under it, but if types of wood start affecting then it will be an issue. Best to get a home dem then

morricab · Nov 1, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Good point. Yes flooring will have a big effect. It is easy to not have a carpet under it, but if types of wood start affecting then it will be an issue. Best to get a home dem then

Then you would need to consider a kind of base plate to put under them that satisfies the characteristic you want. I find it a bit strange that something so crucial has been left essentially to chance.

marslo · Nov 1, 2018

Morricab,
From my experience XD series require very long burning up process.
It took over a year to stabilize.
During this time a had a visit of the collegue who loved before my Duo Omega and as you he was less impressed with Mezzo HD.
For me it was shouty as well, I even sended my Lampi to Lukasz to reduce the gain and downgrade the clock.
Imho the bass section setup is critical to the reception of midrange and highs. Once this achieved the bass is better controlled and has more colors than with AB class amps from former Duo series.
I think my Crossfire III is very fast and transparent for SET and it is again a good match with XD as it was with Duo Omega.
What for is short basshorn is a technical question and I am not able to answer, I feel the quality of bass improved very much compared to Duo Omega .
I tried Mezzo XD with Vitus SIA 025 and this is the best integrated SS I listened to with Mezzo XD , better than home XA from AG.
Still prefer Crossfire III though.

bonzo75 · Nov 1, 2018

morricab said:
Then you would need to consider a kind of base plate to put under them that satisfies the characteristic you want. I find it a bit strange that something so crucial has been left essentially to chance.

Well we haven't established it has. Needs to be checked. With all probability, Christoph, Munich, and the place where I listen to these near Birmingham all have different flooring and it seems to sound great on all of them.

spiritofmusic · Nov 1, 2018

I'm coming around to the conclusion my down firing subs Zus critically hold the spkr back from being seamless (other issues as well).

This may be the case w other spkrs, and the floor does make a difference.

Ked, from my experience, this is a major consideration.

morricab · Nov 1, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Well we haven't established it has. Needs to be checked. With all probability, Christoph, Munich, and the place where I listen to these near Birmingham all have different flooring and it seems to sound great on all of them.

Knowing principles of physics and absorption coefficients of different materials, I don't see how it cannot impact the sound. All Probably all the mentioned places had hard flooring (Munich maybe had that industrial ultra short carpeting with concrete underneath...this might not do much). However, you are right, the degree of impact could be small enough to be inconsequential.

morricab · Nov 1, 2018

spiritofmusic said:
I'm coming around to the conclusion my down firing subs Zus critically hold the spkr back from being seamless (other issues as well).

This may be the case w other spkrs, and the floor does make a difference.

Ked, from my experience, this is a major consideration.

Both of my horns are floor firing designs and both have a base that comes with them so that they fire onto always the same surface regardless of where they are. Integration though with them is not a problem...they sound very coherent...

morricab · Nov 1, 2018

marslo said:
Morricab,
From my experience XD series require very long burning up process.
It took over a year to stabilize.
During this time a had a visit of the collegue who loved before my Duo Omega and as you he was less impressed with Mezzo HD.
For me it was shouty as well, I even sended my Lampi to Lukasz to reduce the gain and downgrade the clock.
Imho the bass section setup is critical to the reception of midrange and highs. Once this achieved the bass is better controlled and has more colors than with AB class amps from former Duo series.
I think my Crossfire III is very fast and transparent for SET and it is again a good match with XD as it was with Duo Omega.
What for is short basshorn is a technical question and I am not able to answer, I feel the quality of bass improved very much compared to Duo Omega .
I tried Mezzo XD with Vitus SIA 025 and this is the best integrated SS I listened to with Mezzo XD , better than home XA from AG.
Still prefer Crossfire III though.

The Crossfire III worked very well with my Odeon La Bohemes. It is a good amp but I am happier now with the Aries Cerat Genus, particularly with the bass (mine is horn bass and not active).

bonzo75 · Nov 1, 2018

morricab said:
Knowing principles of physics and absorption coefficients of different materials, I don't see how it cannot impact the sound. All Probably all the mentioned places had hard flooring (Munich maybe had that industrial ultra short carpeting with concrete underneath...this might not do much). However, you are right, the degree of impact could be small enough to be inconsequential.

Yes I don't disagree the Floor would have a noise impact. Does it affect negatively is the question? I had downward firing woofers on Summits and fired them directly to the floor, on granite, marble, and finally on Auralex which is where I liked them. Also the height of the woofer from the floor mattered. As long as it is easily manageable it is not an issue

morricab · Nov 1, 2018

bonzo75 said:
Yes I don't disagree the Floor would have a noise impact. Does it affect negatively is the question? I had downward firing woofers on Summits and fired them directly to the floor, on granite, marble, and finally on Auralex which is where I liked them. Also the height of the woofer from the floor mattered. As long as it is easily manageable it is not an issue

Yes, but for the Universum the issue is how much midrange this driver makes. In most cases a downward woofer would maybe go up to 80-150Hz but not 300+. Bass quality is also affected but the mids in this case are going to be impacted as well.

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