Audiophiles Who Don't Trust Their Ears...

Andre Marc · Sep 17, 2015

asiufy said:
I believe that the "measurements" folks are in a different hobby altogether. The pursuit, the end goal, might be the same, but the paths are as different as they can be.
Now, I think the "seeking approval" is way more common in our hobby, from the people I met and know. There *is* a herd mentality, and with the Internet, it has spread further. Before, people would follow magazine Y and reviewer X. Now people are following poster A or B, without knowing their biases, commercial or not, and that is a very dangerous thing.
Jack mentioned something that's crucial as well: people need to know, for certain, what they like. I know what I like, and I enjoy figuring out what others like too. But in order for you to really know what you like, you need a frame of reference. And that's only possible by auditioning. I find it odd that a lot of people online claim they have "the best this", "the best that", and when asked, they said they never compared their "best this" to any other "this". They just assumed, for some reason, they got the best, perhaps because it's from a respected brand, maybe because it's expensive, or because other folks ended up buying the same "best this".
We all need to respect people's preferences, but they need to come from experience, not hearsay or "this guy said this is really good"...

So you're saying you haven't heard, in 7 years, amps, speakers and cables better than the ones you have right now? You really haven't been to my store then (THAT'S A JOKE, BTW)

cheers,
alex

Super and enjoyable post!!!!

Lots of great points! You framed it very well...agree with all.

To answer your question..I may have heard "better", def. lots of different, but not enough for me to get back on the merry go round and start having boxes
come and go...

We just moved into a new house, so a speaker change is required simply due to logistic and environment.

FrantzM · Sep 17, 2015

Andre Marc said:
Great post, our ears are very good at keeping us alive. They can certainly tell us if we like an amplifier...

And on that note..I do know what I like..not sure why someone would not.

In these discussions, I am often reminded of something I believe Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but verify". and that is what instruments can help us do: Verify
So I am comfortable with that fact. I do not trust my senses in general. Whenever possible I supplement them with instruments... For my pleasure I just listen .. I do not need to believe my ears .. I just use them ...

Andre Marc · Sep 17, 2015

FrantzM said:
In these discussions, I am often reminded of something I believe Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but verify". and that is what instruments can help us do: Verify
So I am comfortable with that fact. I do not trust my senses in general. Whenever possible I supplement them with instruments... For my pleasure I just listen .. I do not need to believe my ears .. I just use them ...

Well stated sir.

Gregadd · Sep 17, 2015

Gregadd · Sep 17, 2015

http://gizmodo.com/this-audio-illusion-will-make-you-never-trust-your-ears-1593113324

DaveyF · Sep 17, 2015

FrantzM said:
In these discussions, I am often reminded of something I believe Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but verify". and that is what instruments can help us do: Verify
So I am comfortable with that fact. I do not trust my senses in general. Whenever possible I supplement them with instruments... For my pleasure I just listen .. I do not need to believe my ears .. I just use them ...

Frantz, you say "trust but verify". However, in the reproduction of music, we have seen many instances where the sound we like cannot be verified with instrument readings. Therefore, i ask you, what do you believe then, your ears or the
instruments? What have you just verified?

microstrip · Sep 17, 2015

FrantzM said:
In these discussions, I am often reminded of something I believe Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but verify". and that is what instruments can help us do: Verify
So I am comfortable with that fact. I do not trust my senses in general. Whenever possible I supplement them with instruments... For my pleasure I just listen .. I do not need to believe my ears .. I just use them ...

Frantz,

Apologies to disturb your effort to bring the Cold War techniques to audio, but IMHO in high end stereo we must supplement the instruments with the ears.
The instruments are a reliable way of getting information that allows us to get reliable data needed to understand situations and speed up some decisions, but unfortunately currently verification should be carried using our ears. YMMV.

Surely to look for nuclear weapons I would use radiation detectors, not my senses.

Mike Lavigne · Sep 17, 2015

FrantzM said:
In these discussions, I am often reminded of something I believe Ronald Reagan said, "Trust but verify". and that is what instruments can help us do: Verify
So I am comfortable with that fact. I do not trust my senses in general. Whenever possible I supplement them with instruments... For my pleasure I just listen .. I do not need to believe my ears .. I just use them ...

someday maybe we will see attendees at audio shows carrying around test gear to figure out which room sounds best......nope.....we will never ever see that.

why?

because people serious enough about high end audio to attend those shows could give a rip about measurements. they only care about what their ears tell them. they trust their ears.

and those who need measurment verification cannot be bothered by actually attending a high end audio show.

maybe we have an objectivist here who actually has purchased their entire system with measurements and attends audio shows with test gear.

nope.

Fitzcaraldo215 · Sep 17, 2015

Andre Marc said:
You are absolutely correct...one must be aware that we may be hearing what we WANT to hear, and that we can even fool our selves. That is why
when auditioning a product, multiple listening sessions are paramount.

Sounds like you are somewhat softening your initial position of you either trust your ears or you don't. Very few things in life are black/white. Trust is one of them. There are degrees of trust. It is relative. And, trust can increase or diminish with further experience.

Also, the totally false claim by some "ears" guys that "measurements" guys either don't listen or place no credence in that listening is really counterproductive, not to mention ignorant. Anyone who does not listen for themselves before buying is a fool, even if they also seek out measurements, consult audio science, reviews, friends, etc.

I do understand that the ears can be fooled. That goes back to the days we all know in the showroom when the more efficient speakers which played a little louder than the others would sell like hot cakes. That is but a simple example and there are much subtler ones than that. I also know from experience that trying to match by ear alone differing volume levels between A and B, for example, is not very accurate at all.

If one wishes to believe that they can just tune into only what their ears tell them without any influence by their minds or other extraneous factors, more power to them. I do not completely trust that for me, hard as I might try to consciously condition my mind and my receptivity to "tune out" all other influences. The conscious mind can only go so far in trying to control the subconscious or unconscious. I do trust Freud and many others in having identified and confirmed that.

To me, audio is not simple. I think listening for oneself can provide a lot of useful information in making satisfying audio choices. But, the process is complex, so I believe the more information one has, the better the choices. Measurements do not tell the whole story, either. So, what could possibly be wrong with judiciously using listening plus measurements plus other information, each of us deciding for ourselves how much to weigh each of those data points?

Just as I must accept other people's choices as to what gear sounds great to them, I must accept their own process in making those choices, even if I think I know better. So, why is there an argument? Why can't we all just get along?

Ron Resnick · Sep 17, 2015

I absolutely trust my ears. But I know that I am more sensitive to certain sonic attributes (e.g., brightness) than are other people, and that I am less sensitive to certain other sonic attributes (e.g., discontinuity between drivers in loudspeakers) than are other people. (I may be the only person alive who is not embarrassed to admit to having no problem listening to Martin-Logan Monolith Is. : )

In high-end audio hobby terms, I definitely feel I sometimes do not know what to listen for (especially with cables). In music enjoyment terms I solve this simply by assessing the level of the emotional connection with the music a particular system allows me to experience, and by not thinking about sonic attributes in audiophile terms.

To Jack's excellent question "whether people really know for certain what they like," my answer is that I feel I definitely know what I like. The more difficult, second order question, I think, is, assuming we know what we like, how do we choose between components which excel in different sonic attributes (assuming there is no particular component which is superior in all ways to competing components)?

Andre Marc · Sep 17, 2015

Fitzcaraldo215 said:
Sounds like you are somewhat softening your initial position of you either trust your ears or you don't. Very few things in life are black/white. Trust is one of them. There are degrees of trust. It is relative. And, trust can increase or diminish with further experience.

Also, the totally false claim by some "ears" guys that "measurements" guys either don't listen or place no credence in that listening is really counterproductive, not to mention ignorant. Anyone who does not listen for themselves before buying is a fool, even if they also seek out measurements, consult audio science, reviews, friends, etc.

I do understand that the ears can be fooled. That goes back to the days we all know in the showroom when the more efficient speakers which played a little louder than the others would sell like hot cakes. That is but a simple example and there are much subtler ones than that. I also know from experience that trying to match by ear alone differing volume levels between A and B, for example, is not very accurate at all.

If one wishes to believe that they can just tune into only what their ears tell them without any influence by their minds or other extraneous factors, more power to them. I do not completely trust that for me, hard as I might try to consciously condition my mind and my receptivity to "tune out" all other influences. The conscious mind can only go so far in trying to control the subconscious or unconscious. I do trust Freud and many others in having identified and confirmed that.

To me, audio is not simple. I think listening for oneself can provide a lot of useful information in making satisfying audio choices. But, the process is complex, so I believe the more information one has, the better the choices. Measurements do not tell the whole story, either. So, what could possibly be wrong with judiciously using listening plus measurements plus other information, each of us deciding for ourselves how much to weigh each of those data points?

Just as I must accept other people's choices as to what gear sounds great to them, I must accept their own process in making those choices, even if I think I know better. So, why is there an argument? Why can't we all just get along?

I am not softening my position in the least. I think a component or speaker you plan to spend many years with (well at least some of us) and spend multi thousands of dollars on deservers more than a few hours of listening.

First to make sure you are not being influenced by sales staff, and to make sure that the product performs well on consecutive occasions and that it is love not lust.

andromedaaudio · Sep 17, 2015

I trust both , spending 2500 $ on a good measurement system to confirm what your hearing is the real audiofile deal.
Measurements can make your system quite a bit better .

Joe Whip · Sep 17, 2015

My sources are a good bit older that the OP the late 90's. The only thing I upgrade is the DAC. Sounds superb. See no reason to change. I do trust my ears but only after listening for extended periods if I am looking to purchase something.

Geardaddy · Sep 17, 2015

Good thread. Audio can be a very fickle hobby, and I liken it to a mood based disorder. Mood does dictate enjoyment and colors perception regardless of hearing. A lot of us seem to suffer from various levels of dysphoria (along with OCD tendencies), and like Saul who's moods were soothed by David's lyre, our pathology is soothed by musical reproduction.

What I find equally interesting is the "non-system" or more peripheral intangibles like power and grounding that greatly impact a system's performance. Same speaker, dac, etc but very different sound. It is the mysterious variables that create a certain inconsistency and make us look schizophrenic....

Rodney Gold · Sep 17, 2015

The ear is merely a conduit to the brain, its the brain that influences what and how you hear.
But the rub is that there is no universal truth as to what you hear at listening position..so you just have to trust that ear/brain interface..after all , the only person you have to please is yourself.

Andre Marc · Sep 17, 2015

Geardaddy said:
Good thread. Audio can be a very fickle hobby, and I liken it to a mood based disorder. Mood does dictate enjoyment and colors perception regardless of hearing. A lot of us seem to suffer from various levels of dysphoria (along with OCD tendencies), and like Saul who's moods were soothed by David's lyre, our pathology is soothed by musical reproduction.

What I find equally interesting is the "non-system" or more peripheral intangibles like power and grounding that greatly impact a system's performance. Same speaker, dac, etc but very different sound. It is the mysterious variables that create a certain inconsistency and make us look schizophrenic....

agree that mood can def. color what we perceive in audio. even a bit o sinus pressure or a cold can skew it.

NorthStar · Sep 17, 2015

Andre Marc said:
I think an interesting topic is Audiophiles who do not have confidence in their ability to hear.
This is NOT, I repeat NOT, about having "golden ears" or being a "gifted listener" or any such lofty nonsense.
It is about the ability to trust your experience, your perceptions, and what your ears are sending to your brain.
So many here want to see measurements to "back up" what they have heard, and many also seek approval from
others in the hobby to justify their purchases.
Maybe I am just out there, but I still own the same amps, speakers, and cables I bought 7 years ago. The only things that have changed
are my digital sources.
I have absolute confidence in my ability to believe what I am hearing. Anybody else?

Monsieur Andre,

After reading your above post, I was thinking; am I properly/emotionally conditioned/ready to absorb the music in its true essence/light?
If intensively involved/concentrated in activities of the brain, and physical...I might not perceive immediately that some type of music is not contributing to my inner peace ... épanouissement.
Only when distracted for a moment that I stop the activity that I was performing, and change the music...say for classical music...as it flows in harmony with every part of my biological constitution and spirituality...in the vast majority of times. ...Some other genre of music as well...but classical music on top of everything else.

When the music vibrates my inner chords on a higher emotional level, I forget about everything else...even the gear.

So, my emotional comfort state dictates my stronger trust...more than my set of ears. I don't think that it matters if my gear is ultra hi-end or simple hi-fi.

The direct relation that the music has with my inner self (soul) is the main essence of "trust". ...Way of speech.
I know I know...it goes against conventional wisdom in our material world...still it is what I trust the most...my emotional ? comfort zone first.

But I know what you're saying Andre...I just shared my perception according to my personal confidence's level...soul vibrations.

NorthStar · Sep 17, 2015

We are the music we listen to.

spiritofmusic · Sep 17, 2015

Do you get up in the morning, just itching to listen to music on your system, anxious until the first notes start playing?
Do you just get swept along in the moment, and don't at least at that point have any cognitive dissonance?
Are you minded to play disc after disc?
If you can say yes to these three qs, you can probably trust your ears.
No doubt, you may occas wish for better, or wonder what might be different out there.
But this doesn't mean you don't trust your ears.
But if the joy of what you hear is smehow diluted by confusion the measurements don't match, or you get 101 suggestions why the sound is poor, and you enjoy it less as a result, you're probably not trusting your ears.

amirm · Sep 17, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Do you get up in the morning, just itching to listen to music on your system, anxious until the first notes start playing?

No. I have to get something to drink and eat something. Then I need to log on here and see if there are any fights to put out. And any great music recommendations posted.

Do you just get swept along in the moment, and don't at least at that point have any cognitive dissonance?

No.

Are you minded to play disc after disc?

Don't play discs anymore so the answer is no.

If you can say yes to these three qs, you can probably trust your ears.

Now it is clear why I don't.

But if the joy of what you hear is smehow diluted by confusion the measurements don't match, or you get 101 suggestions why the sound is poor, and you enjoy it less as a result, you're probably not trusting your ears.

No one worries less about measurements when listening to music than those who believe in measurements! Think about that....

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