What computer front end is worthy to run the Scarlatti DAC?

garylkoh · Oct 25, 2010

Vincent Kars said:
Isolation: if you connect 2 boxes with USB or with Firewire, you make an electrical connection between the 2. No difference between these protocols on this aspect.

True. For a long time, my preferred interface between the server and the DAC was via optical Toslink. I preferred the poorer interface over the electrical contamination.... until good USB/Firewire DACs started coming coming available in the past 2 years.

The only product I know that explicitly addresses this is the HRT Musicstreamer. This "isolation" was in all their marketing when they released the first product.

When I mentioned this to Daniel Weiss 2 years ago, he looked at me like I was some kind of idiot and said "if we didn't take care of electrical isolation in the studio, you'll get noise and hum." I guess it means that it's also taken care of in his products. So I've always taken it for granted.

garylkoh · Oct 25, 2010

Orb said:
Still, as I said USB would be the way I would go if I had the transport and DAC from dCS by using their Upsampler.

Cheers
Orb

Unless you are in the non-oversampling camp, or you wanted to play 24/192 files. The USB implementation on the Scarlatti is limited to 24/96.

Cheers
Gary

Vincent Kars · Oct 25, 2010

For a long time, my preferred interface between the server and the DAC was via optical Toslink. I preferred the poorer interface over the electrical contamination.... until good USB/Firewire DACs started coming coming available in the past 2 years.

That is what Ayre has done in the QB-9, isolating the USB from the DAC with opto-couplers. Kind of DIY Toslink...
http://www.ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf

Orb · Oct 25, 2010

garylkoh said:
Unless you are in the non-oversampling camp, or you wanted to play 24/192 files. The USB implementation on the Scarlatti is limited to 24/96.

Cheers
Gary

LOL well give me a Mac and a Weiss and I am happy, serves me right for pointing to a respected USB product and yeah sucks for 24/192, even is USB 2.0.
BTW I thought the Ayre also dealt with greater isolation relating to the usb interface?
Just mentioning this as you comment about HRT, and Mr Hansen has been pretty vocal on this subject.
Due to the additional-dedicated chip/power design/architecture of IEEE1394-firewire I would say it provides more of an opportunity for greater isolation in the design.
IEEE considered and proposed standards relating to galvanic isolation quite a long time ago, along with the dedicated function and performance of firewire(or better known as IEEE1394) this probably helped to see its use in pro world (same way as XLR over RCA IMO).
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/IEEE+1394+Bus+Galvanic+Isolation+Issues.(proposed...-a057778456
http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/industry/appnotes/Texas/analog/slla011.pdf

Also Gary, thanks for pointing out the dCS Upsampler, I should had checked bad me especially as it could had been an expensive mistake doh

Cheers
Orb

Vincent Kars · Oct 25, 2010

LOL well give me a Mac and a Weiss and I am happy, serves me right for pointing to a respected USB product and yeah sucks for 24/192, even is USB 2.0.

The limitation to 24/96 is not related to USB 2 but due to the native mode USB class 1 audio driver.
At the moment OSX and new Linux distro’s support USB audio class 2 (24/176 & 192).
Companies like Wavelength and Ayre offers a USB audio class 2 driver for Win.

Orb · Oct 25, 2010

Vincent didnt you say USB was a standard over firewire and did not need drivers

Just teasing ya bud hehe.
Was juust commenting it should not be that difficult for these manus to support 192 from a hardware perspective (unless was receiver chip related).
Cheers
Orb

Vincent Kars · Oct 25, 2010

There is a USB audio class 1 standard, all major OS (Win, OSX and Linux) have a native mode class 1 driver.
In February 2009 the class 2 was finalized.
OSX and Linux now support this natively.
As audio has priority zero at MS and nobody knows if they even have plans to support class 2, some companies decided to develop a USB class 2 audio driver.

However, fact is that there are standards for USB audio and none for Firewire.
As a consequence, there are a lot of USB DAC’s and very few Firewire DAC’s.

Ok, just a little bit of teasing: what about a 22-Channel, 192kHz Bus-powered USB High Speed Audio Interface?
http://www.rme-audio.de/en_products_babyface.php

Orb · Oct 25, 2010

What do you mean firewire has no standards?
I just gave two documents mentioning one aspect of its standard; specifically galvanic isolation.
IEEE1394.

You just now given details showing that there is no standard implementation of USB, so 24/192 on a Microsoft machine is not technically a standard then

Also I am sure some of the USB machines had to change their receiver chip/boards to support beyond 24/92 (QB9 is one example).

If your talking about protocol/etc, then yes firewire is also a standard, need to look at IEEE 1394-1995.
That said it is far simpler if going firewire or IEEE1394 to just buy a Mac IMO, but definitely interested what aspects arent standard.
Cheers
Orb

Vincent Kars · Oct 25, 2010

IEEE1394 obvious is a standard.
Is there a IEEE1394 audio standard just like there is a USB audio standard?

amirm · Oct 25, 2010

Reason to use USB is that Firewire is dead but it just doesn't know it

. Firewire's time in the sun came and went. There was a time when it had much more bandwidth that anything else but Intel relentlessly pounded it into the ground. With USB 3.0 now coming online, Firewire is really without a future. So if for any reason than longevity and universal access with any PC, USB would be my choice.

Orb · Oct 25, 2010

Vincent,
you got a lot of background experience it seems in the area of USB audio (checked your site earlier), do you know how M2tech implemented their USB/driver on Microsoft and pre OSX10.6.4 (Snow Leopard I think), also you know why the QB9 had to replace the receiver board for 192khz?
Before OSX 10.6.4 it is fair to say that even on Mac USB implementations for higher than 92khz was proprietary, while it is still proprietary on Windows.
So in a way on the Mac, both firewire and USB audio Class 2 are both standards, just that the device driver for firewire can be from a seperate manufacturer to support their device but implements into a the specific designed architecture.
In terms of Architecture the Mac is pretty good for standards on both.

Edit:
NVM on the QB9, it was using a TI receiver chip that is only USB specification version 1.1 compatible.

Cheers
Orb

Orb · Oct 25, 2010

Vincent Kars said:
IEEE1394 obvious is a standard.
Is there a IEEE1394 audio standard just like there is a USB audio standard?

Firewire/IEEE1394 was originally designed for audio-video, along with certain storage from what I understand, so does not implement device classes like USB that is more generic-ubiquitous.
Cheers
Orb

Orb · Oct 25, 2010

amirm said:
Reason to use USB is that Firewire is dead but it just doesn't know it . Firewire's time in the sun came and went. There was a time when it had much more bandwidth that anything else but Intel relentlessly pounded it into the ground. With USB 3.0 now coming online, Firewire is really without a future. So if for any reason than longevity and universal access with any PC, USB would be my choice.

Yeah I tend to agree Amir about its long term future,
but IMO you could possibly argue with the continue development of USB buying either the current USB or Firewire audio DAC will result in both products being redundant and requiring a different replacement (if problems occur) in future, still this should not be a concern as long as you have the 24/192 USB I assume.
Amir with your time at Microsoft, were you ever involved in the USB implementation discussions, especially audio and video?

Cheers
Orb

brianherlihy · Oct 25, 2010

In response to the beginning of this thread, i use the Scarlatti stack (minus the transport) with a mac mini server as the source, the new one has an HDMI display interface so i can hook it up to my TV. the Scarlatti upsampler 'keeps it simple' as Bruce said through locking the computers clock into the scarlatti stack. i am not as proficient as the rest of you here, but what i like dCS pro audio background approach. steven stated they are following the 24/192 and i get a sense that any software upgrade will be free and any hardware upgrade will have some value associated with the original purchase.

Bruce B · Oct 25, 2010

Vincent Kars said:
The limitation to 24/96 is not related to USB 2 but due to the native mode USB class 1 audio driver.
At the moment OSX and new Linux distro’s support USB audio class 2 (24/176 & 192).
Companies like Wavelength and Ayre offers a USB audio class 2 driver for Win.

At RMAF, we experimented with 352.8 and DSD over USB via Mac mini.

Orb · Oct 26, 2010

Hey Bruce I appreciate this is offtopic, but can you say what the hardware was and who developed the drivers?
I assume this was using USB 2.0, what you say ties in with why I did not mention Audio Class earlier because it is possible to implement higher than 96khz using their own developed solution (M2tech a quick example).
IMO and experience with drivers this is not necessarily an issue and at times can even be better but I appreciate it relies upon the skills of the engineers involved and supports the OS and PC-laptop you use now and in future, however Audio Class 2 spec compatability will overcome many of these hurdles and Vincent you are right to mention it, but it seems to be taking forever to be adopted considering the 1st chips and hardware were around in late 2008.

Thanks
Orb

Search

Search

What computer front end is worthy to run the Scarlatti DAC?

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio

Orb

New Member

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio

Orb

New Member

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio

Orb

New Member

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio

amirm

Banned

Orb

New Member

Orb

New Member

Orb

New Member

brianherlihy

New Member

Bruce B

WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member

Orb

New Member

Similar threads

Members online