Very interesting! Thanks for that insight. What, if i may ask, do you use to drive your Duettas?
Apogee Acoustics via Graz
- Thread starter TitaniumTroy
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Very interesting! Thanks for that insight. What, if i may ask, do you use to drive your Duettas?
The large room thing - I have heard my most recent Duettas in a larger room and it was NOT better.
Also, when using vinyl, because the LF is very extended (mine extend to 21Hz +/- 0DB believe it or not) the bass panels do not react well to warped vinyl. You'll see large bass panel excursions occurring. You get the same thing using subwoofers with vinyl (my old Martin Logan Descent would go crazy sometimes), so I would recommend using a phono stage which curtails low frequencies.
They really are one hell of an open lens, so any vinyl foibles will get heard. That isn't to say they can't sound great with vinyl, they can. It is just that you need a very good TT setup for them.
Also, when using vinyl, because the LF is very extended (mine extend to 21Hz +/- 0DB believe it or not) the bass panels do not react well to warped vinyl. You'll see large bass panel excursions occurring. You get the same thing using subwoofers with vinyl (my old Martin Logan Descent would go crazy sometimes), so I would recommend using a phono stage which curtails low frequencies.
They really are one hell of an open lens, so any vinyl foibles will get heard. That isn't to say they can't sound great with vinyl, they can. It is just that you need a very good TT setup for them.
I have had all sorts connected to them up to 600 Watts. Seriously - a lot of different amps have been tried. I actually use 80 Watt 211 based valve monoblocks from a company called Austria Analog and a valve preamp.
Those monos can hit 180 Watts for a short while.
Connecting a Parasound A21 with an EAR868PL gave incredible results (450+ Watts in 4 Ohms). Much better than some Rowland 301 monoblocks (which cost a lot). I just couldn't live with it long term. But for short demos that combo was enough to make you literally sit there in pure amazement. Stunning dynamics, resolution and bass.
If you can cope with high volume sonic onslaughts of the mesmerising kind every day, I reckon the Parasound JC1 monos and a tube pre would be a very good way to go.
The valve amps with the neodymium Definitive:
Thanks, Bonzo...good to know and will surely keep that in mind. Funny, that is precisely why i elected after much deliberation to go with Gryphon over Lamm mono SETs. If i knew i would never part with my X1s, i might well have gone with Lamm (might)...but with the last-and-final speaker playing field filled with harder to drive speakers, i felt the Gryphons were truly SOTA for me, and gave me that optionality to consider speakers like the big panels, the big Rockports, etc.
Yes, i was originally comparing the ML2.2 (18 watt SET monos) for the X1s vs the Gryphon Colosseum as the next amp in my system...and if i was utterly and unequivocally committed to the X1s, i might well have gone with the SET monos...but given that i wanted all-out power and greater long-term flexibility (and i loved the sound), i went with Gryphons and have never looked back.
I know the original Apogees had a reputation for being hard to drive. I think that was primarily due to the Scintilla, where Krell was the only thing that would handle them. That's not the case now though - lots of great amps and the other models have crossovers that are not so demanding, though more so than a regular speaker. The reworked speakers and crossovers offered by the Apogee repair guys are more efficient still.
I use a McCormack DNA500 on my original Duettas, with tubes in front.
Yes, they can be transparently revealing, and setup is super finicky. But when you get it right they truly sing like nothing else.
I use a McCormack DNA500 on my original Duettas, with tubes in front.
Yes, they can be transparently revealing, and setup is super finicky. But when you get it right they truly sing like nothing else.
Hi Guys, I just wanted to say a quick hello to Bob (thanks for the kind words), and everyone looking in.His [above] statements are absolutely true: the True Sound Works rebuilt Apogees are essentially everything you could wish for along with the added bonus of being much more flexible with your choice(s) of power amps. When Bob runs his DNA 500 through his current Duetta Sigs (as described with his crossover upgrades, etc) the speed, effortlessness, and sheer drive are all there in spades, especially with his vinyl rig.
Apogees still have a great relationship with solid state powerhouses as it has always been an ideal match but the TSW Ap's now give you the added
option of choosing tube amps as well.
As an essentially stable 4 ohm load and approximately 87 db efficiency my Duetta Ultimates have been a great match with tube amps such as the Ref 75 (running KT 120's), Cary SA280 V12R (100 wpc running EL-34's or 6550's), as well as any number of seriously High Power tube amps such as my Tube Research Labs Golden Triode 200 monoblocs...
When you mention the Maggie 20.7's I can only remember hearing the 20.1's years ago and can say I still have a very soft spot in my heart towards maggies. The 20.1's I heard at Lyric in NYC and they sounded wonderful but considering my first "High end" speakers were MG 2B's from ages before until I lived with MG 3A's for many more years...I'll always love Maggies but the advantages of what TSW has done for Apogees must really be heard to fully be appreciated.
Room size should be your single most determining factor for which model will fit ideally for you. As a general rule the perfect match is of course, ideal. But : if you're fortunate enough to have a bigger room than the ideal sized speaker for it you're much better off with a smaller Apogee designated to an 'area' of it and upgrade speaker size as the $$$$$ allows later. What I mean to say is DON'T try to shoehorn a bigger Apogee into a room which is too small for it! I learned that the hard way. My rather moderate sized room (although purely dedicated) at 13'x18'x8' fit the Duetta perfectly. Perfectly. But like an idiot I couldn't help giving in to an "Opportunity" to try the Diva in place of it. Long story short...I tried for a year to make it work. Everything I could possibly try. Nope. Just couldn't quite get it right. Flipped the Divas, returned to a Duetta: Big Smiles and happily ever after.
Moral of story: Apogees want a perfect match of speaker model to room size. Yes, I know this is common sense but Apogees want EVERYTHING ideal for them. They are fussy, finicky and expect to be catered to. Electronics, cabling, room set-up...attention to detail in every aspect. They're sweet-spot speakers... (Yes they can sound really cool from another seat but they only sound "Startling" from THE listening throne...). So: if you have a 'guest', he/she gets "THE Chair" and you spin the tunes... They're pricey (but ultimately Under-priced once completely dialed in), they're a PITA to ship (Heavy, fragile, Expen$ive), You need to be very patient with set up...very. Whatever you can think of that'll make a speaker be a lot of work...these will probably check the box. But. Here's the BUT:
After all that... All the hassles, expenses, catering to...Sweat, concern...dialing...dialing...dialing... tweaking, tweaking, tweaking...(Is it really that much? : YES)....But
When you're finally finished...and the stars all align in your room 'just so'...then ALL that crazy effort will just fade away because the 'Events' you'll be experiencing from that designated throne of YOURS...will be all worth it. Once you hear it, you're SOLD, hook line and sinker.
In a nutshell (pardon my enthusiasm but if I can be so bold): Apogees...are it. You're done.
Happy Lissn'n.
Hello together
I'm new to this forum. Bonzo pointed me into the direction when he was at my place to listen to my Apogee Studio Grands.
I do (and have) own(ed) several different Apogee Models and have heard pretty much all of them.
There are still some pertinacious preconceptions that Apogees in general are from hard to almost impossible to drive for the connected amps.
That is very true in the case of the dreaded 1 Ohm Scintilla (between 0.8 Ohm and 1.1 Ohm over the whole frequency range and quite low sensitivity) and also the FullRange is rather hard to drive, but only when you want to drive them directly, without the passive x-over for the midrange-tweeter-part and without the resistors to the bass-panels.
The Studio Grand (and the Studio Ribbon Array) on the other hand is the easiest to drive model with a purely resistive, linear 6 Ohm over the whole frequency range and a quite high sensitivity of about 87dB/watt in 3 meters distance (not 1m !!).
I drive my Studio Grands (without the integrated Subwoofers) in my huge living room with only 30 Watts per channel from my KR Audio SET amp to volume levels, I don't want to listen to for longer than half a track.
Because of the pure resistive load of the panels/ribbons, Apogees (except Scintilla and FR) are a rather easy load for the driving amp.
Cheers,
Christoph
I'm new to this forum. Bonzo pointed me into the direction when he was at my place to listen to my Apogee Studio Grands.
I do (and have) own(ed) several different Apogee Models and have heard pretty much all of them.
There are still some pertinacious preconceptions that Apogees in general are from hard to almost impossible to drive for the connected amps.
That is very true in the case of the dreaded 1 Ohm Scintilla (between 0.8 Ohm and 1.1 Ohm over the whole frequency range and quite low sensitivity) and also the FullRange is rather hard to drive, but only when you want to drive them directly, without the passive x-over for the midrange-tweeter-part and without the resistors to the bass-panels.
The Studio Grand (and the Studio Ribbon Array) on the other hand is the easiest to drive model with a purely resistive, linear 6 Ohm over the whole frequency range and a quite high sensitivity of about 87dB/watt in 3 meters distance (not 1m !!).
I drive my Studio Grands (without the integrated Subwoofers) in my huge living room with only 30 Watts per channel from my KR Audio SET amp to volume levels, I don't want to listen to for longer than half a track.
Because of the pure resistive load of the panels/ribbons, Apogees (except Scintilla and FR) are a rather easy load for the driving amp.
Cheers,
Christoph
Hello bonzo
The guy you are referring to, was driving the mighty Apogee Grand (not the FullRange) with six channels of NAT SET amps.
The guy you are referring to, was driving the mighty Apogee Grand (not the FullRange) with six channels of NAT SET amps.
Beautiful room and system! Is that a Lamm monoblock or a KR SET you are using to drive your speakers?
Hello all, Christoph had some important points about the misunderstanding many people have about Apogees.. their reputation based on the Scinnies and other early models is true but in general the new designs, as described, are much easier to run.
As for the new Divas vs the new Full Ranges they are both large speakers and appreciate room to breathe. I had mentioned earlier how the Divas were too cramped in my 13'x18' room and I can't claim to be an expert but I would speculate that "a few feet more" in both dimensions would probably suffice for the Diva though I'm sure they would thrive in even larger rooms. I have heard them sound truly wonderful.
The Full Ranges, I am told [ by Rich Murry of True Sound Works ] are essentially in a class of their own. There are "all Apogees", and they can all sound exceptional with the proper care and equipment; "and then there are the Full Ranges". The FR's are essentially in a league all their own. There are "Other/Great" speakers out there ( mostly at several times the FR's price) but 'better' than them would be a tough argument. Room size for them will likely be where most large speakers prevail...
I would highly recommend speaking with the real expert on all the Apogees, Rich at TSW. and I'm sure he'll be glad to lend you his time. If you are fortunate enough to be considering such an acquisition I am speaking from personal experiences spanning several years when I assure you he will deliver the finest musical transducer you have ever wanted.
Glad to be on this fine forum. Happy Lissn'n.
As for the new Divas vs the new Full Ranges they are both large speakers and appreciate room to breathe. I had mentioned earlier how the Divas were too cramped in my 13'x18' room and I can't claim to be an expert but I would speculate that "a few feet more" in both dimensions would probably suffice for the Diva though I'm sure they would thrive in even larger rooms. I have heard them sound truly wonderful.
The Full Ranges, I am told [ by Rich Murry of True Sound Works ] are essentially in a class of their own. There are "all Apogees", and they can all sound exceptional with the proper care and equipment; "and then there are the Full Ranges". The FR's are essentially in a league all their own. There are "Other/Great" speakers out there ( mostly at several times the FR's price) but 'better' than them would be a tough argument. Room size for them will likely be where most large speakers prevail...
I would highly recommend speaking with the real expert on all the Apogees, Rich at TSW. and I'm sure he'll be glad to lend you his time. If you are fortunate enough to be considering such an acquisition I am speaking from personal experiences spanning several years when I assure you he will deliver the finest musical transducer you have ever wanted.
Glad to be on this fine forum. Happy Lissn'n.
HI Lissnr, Christoph, another long apogee thread http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?19104-Apogee-Full-range&p=355730&viewfull=1#post355730
Hi bonzo
I wanted to comment on some facts about my Acoustats and Sphinx Amps in that thread later on anyways.
I wanted to comment on some facts about my Acoustats and Sphinx Amps in that thread later on anyways.
Hi LL21
Thank you for your kind words.
The speakers you see in the foreground are completely to my ideas overhauled Scintillas. They have an new welded and braced steel frame, are augmented to have the sweetspot on ear-level when they are completely upright, new x-overs with better parts. These babies now weigh 120 kg each
You see Justin, I had similar ideas like you, just a year or so before you
They are 1 Ohm and can't be driven by SET amps. For them I tried a wide spectrum of amps (Krell KSA100 Mk2, Musical Fidelity KW, Sphinx PJ) but the Lamm M1.1 worked by far the best.
The speakers you see in the background are Studio Grands (rather Studio Ribbon Arrays because I don't use the integrated subs) and these are the complete antipode with linear 6 Ohm impedance and a quite good sensitivity compared to the "almost-impossible-to-drive-well" 1 Ohm Scintillas. The Studio Grands sing beautifully with just 30 SET watts from KR Audio in my huge living room
Thank you for your kind words.
The speakers you see in the foreground are completely to my ideas overhauled Scintillas. They have an new welded and braced steel frame, are augmented to have the sweetspot on ear-level when they are completely upright, new x-overs with better parts. These babies now weigh 120 kg each
You see Justin, I had similar ideas like you, just a year or so before you They are 1 Ohm and can't be driven by SET amps. For them I tried a wide spectrum of amps (Krell KSA100 Mk2, Musical Fidelity KW, Sphinx PJ) but the Lamm M1.1 worked by far the best.
The speakers you see in the background are Studio Grands (rather Studio Ribbon Arrays because I don't use the integrated subs) and these are the complete antipode with linear 6 Ohm impedance and a quite good sensitivity compared to the "almost-impossible-to-drive-well" 1 Ohm Scintillas. The Studio Grands sing beautifully with just 30 SET watts from KR Audio in my huge living room
Hi Christoph,
Good to see you posting the Apogee forum is largely dead and has been for a while. I think people are afraid to post on it!
I'm pretty sure the way my speakers are braced is fairly unique, and keeps the mass down to reasonable proportions whilst achieving very high rigidity. All out mass doesn't necessarily help. I didn't ever claim frame bracing was original, and I am sure it was done by others before you.
The one thing I haven't done is raise the panels. I want something that works at normal ear height in a normal chair in an 18 ft long room, and your raise idea I think wouldn't work in smaller rooms. And I love the aesthetics of the original Duetta. The front covers have been improved aesthetically by the Interstella spec, but this was largely due to seeing a recent Graz front Duetta panel.
In fact, virtually everything is due to Graz, and no one should forget that. All refurbishers have been trained by him and he supplies the ribbons. He has also built the most interesting variants.
Graz posted a list of the top 10 things you could do to improve the sound above and beyond the standard Apogee spec. I merely did as many as possible within the budget I allocated to Interstella. Which is a damn site less than I allocated to my Porsche, LOL.
One thing the power meters on the Accuphase M-60s has shown me. You can get to a certain volume level, close to the speakers max. Then you can quite comfortably dump over half a Kilowatt into them for maybe 2-3 DB increase in output. I'm confident that leaving the amps running at that power level for a number of hours would burn it out i.e. the speaker will win!
For anyone approaching a pair of Apogees my advice is to think very seriously about what you want. The more money you spend in the right places, the better they will be. You have the opportunity to dump loads of money on super-foo caps and resistors, for example, should you so want to, to try and extract the last nth degree of performance. It probably IS worth it.
Sometimes I think the speakers are taking the ****, challenging you to come up with source components and amps that are up to the task of driving them to a high degree of sound quality, and NOT to a high degree of power, which is the common misconception.
High power WILL NOT give you higher sound quality with the more efficient models. There are some seriously bad sounding high power amps out there and I advise staying a mile away from class D SMPS NC1200 amps. Dreadfull SQ.
Good to see you posting the Apogee forum is largely dead and has been for a while. I think people are afraid to post on it!
I'm pretty sure the way my speakers are braced is fairly unique, and keeps the mass down to reasonable proportions whilst achieving very high rigidity. All out mass doesn't necessarily help. I didn't ever claim frame bracing was original, and I am sure it was done by others before you.
The one thing I haven't done is raise the panels. I want something that works at normal ear height in a normal chair in an 18 ft long room, and your raise idea I think wouldn't work in smaller rooms. And I love the aesthetics of the original Duetta. The front covers have been improved aesthetically by the Interstella spec, but this was largely due to seeing a recent Graz front Duetta panel.
In fact, virtually everything is due to Graz, and no one should forget that. All refurbishers have been trained by him and he supplies the ribbons. He has also built the most interesting variants.
Graz posted a list of the top 10 things you could do to improve the sound above and beyond the standard Apogee spec. I merely did as many as possible within the budget I allocated to Interstella. Which is a damn site less than I allocated to my Porsche, LOL.
One thing the power meters on the Accuphase M-60s has shown me. You can get to a certain volume level, close to the speakers max. Then you can quite comfortably dump over half a Kilowatt into them for maybe 2-3 DB increase in output. I'm confident that leaving the amps running at that power level for a number of hours would burn it out i.e. the speaker will win!
For anyone approaching a pair of Apogees my advice is to think very seriously about what you want. The more money you spend in the right places, the better they will be. You have the opportunity to dump loads of money on super-foo caps and resistors, for example, should you so want to, to try and extract the last nth degree of performance. It probably IS worth it.
Sometimes I think the speakers are taking the ****, challenging you to come up with source components and amps that are up to the task of driving them to a high degree of sound quality, and NOT to a high degree of power, which is the common misconception.
High power WILL NOT give you higher sound quality with the more efficient models. There are some seriously bad sounding high power amps out there and I advise staying a mile away from class D SMPS NC1200 amps. Dreadfull SQ.
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