Apogee Acoustics via Graz

TitaniumTroy · Sep 9, 2015

Has anyone heard the Apogee Acoustics refurbished or updated version of these ribbon speakers? Supposedly
the individual (Graz) who refurbishes the Apogee line, has done some serious updating on these speakers. Such as new process for making the ribbon's, new crossover's, new and more powerful magnets, also they supposedly they are no longer amp killers.

He's based out of Australia, but has a repair/dealer in Minden NV, currently I own Magnepan 3.6's and I am curious as to how these compare. I've read the bass is much better on the Apogee's, however some people thought the old version's had too much bass. As evidenced by a frequency response chart I saw from an old issue of Sterophile.

True Soundworks is the Minden NV dealer, http://www.truesoundworksaudio.com
Music Technology out of Springfield VA does refurbishing too.
Apogee Acoustics http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/index_with_background.html

LL21 · Sep 10, 2015

I am posting here simply to ensure that i get updates on this thread...will definitely want to read responses here. Most intrigued about these as well! There is a pair of Apogee Full Ranges being sold by GallantDiva on Audigon (he owns 2 pairs, and has used them as his references for as long as i can remember). He has a serious setup in the All-Out Assault category, and he feels he has found no better.

RBFC · Sep 10, 2015

LL21 said:
I am posting here simply to ensure that i get updates on this thread...will definitely want to read responses here. Most intrigued about these as well! There is a pair of Apogee Full Ranges being sold by GallantDiva on Audigon (he owns 2 pairs, and has used them as his references for as long as i can remember). He has a serious setup in the All-Out Assault category, and he feels he has found no better.

i had a pair of full ranges too. I agree that in many respects I have not heard better.

Lee

LL21 · Sep 10, 2015

RBFC said:
i had a pair of full ranges too. I agree that in many respects I have not heard better.

Lee

Fantastic...in what respects are they the best you have heard? And in the respects where you have heard better...which areas have they been surpassed...and by whom? Most curious! Thanks for any insights!

RBFC · Sep 10, 2015

LL21 said:
Fantastic...in what respects are they the best you have heard? And in the respects where you have heard better...which areas have they been surpassed...and by whom? Most curious! Thanks for any insights!

I felt that the purity of the midrange & highs was (and may be) unsurpassed in my admittedly limited experience. The bass was good, but low end extension was difficult to balance with the upper/mid bass. This effect may be highly room-dependent. Jason Bloom told me that they addressed phase angle issues with the full-range bass panels in their design work on the Diva. I felt that the Divas had a less "bloated" presentation of low cello/upper string bass registers. Of course, this opinion is limited to what tuning I could achieve in the room at the time. I did have about a dozen ASC tube traps at my disposal. At any rate, I believe you'll need over five feet behind them to the wall to get things close.

Lee

bonzo75 · Sep 11, 2015

There is new 40k GBP Graz Apogee (not sure of exact price) coming into the UK soon. I am lined up hear it. But expect it to be slow to come in and break in.

bonzo75 · Sep 11, 2015

TitaniumTroy said:
Has anyone heard the Apogee Acoustics refurbished or updated version of these ribbon speakers? Supposedly
the individual (Graz) who refurbishes the Apogee line, has done some serious updating on these speakers. Such as new process for making the ribbon's, new crossover's, new and more powerful magnets, also they supposedly they are no longer amp killers.

He's based out of Australia, but has a repair/dealer in Minden NV, currently I own Magnepan 3.6's and I am curious as to how these compare. I've read the bass is much better on the Apogee's, however some people thought the old version's had too much bass. As evidenced by a frequency response chart I saw from an old issue of Sterophile.

True Soundworks is the Minden NV dealer, http://www.truesoundworksaudio.com
Music Technology out of Springfield VA does refurbishing too.
Apogee Acoustics http://www.apogeeacoustics.com/index_with_background.html

I haven't liked any Maggies compared to the Duetta Sigs I heard. But then I haven't heard the 20.7. Also check out Analysis Audio USA, their Omega and Amphitryon might be what you are looking for.

LL21 · Sep 12, 2015

RBFC said:
I felt that the purity of the midrange & highs was (and may be) unsurpassed in my admittedly limited experience. The bass was good, but low end extension was difficult to balance with the upper/mid bass. This effect may be highly room-dependent. Jason Bloom told me that they addressed phase angle issues with the full-range bass panels in their design work on the Diva. I felt that the Divas had a less "bloated" presentation of low cello/upper string bass registers. Of course, this opinion is limited to what tuning I could achieve in the room at the time. I did have about a dozen ASC tube traps at my disposal. At any rate, I believe you'll need over five feet behind them to the wall to get things close.

Lee

Thanks...always great to read about Apogees and their descendants. I did not know about the Full Range phase issues...was this something difficult to fix or impossible to fix? Just curious given their legendary status. I also understand their impedance dropped to a wicked 0.25ohm or something incredibly low. Is this true?

RBFC · Sep 12, 2015

I used 4 Krell monoblocks to drive them. This method stll used the internal passive crossover between the tweeter and midrange, resulting in a "manageable load". When triamping the system, the midrange ribbon was 0.1 ohm driven directly.

As to the bass issues, I was repeating what Jason and Leo told me. I thought that the low bass was a moderate challenge to blend with the mid/upper bass. I was using the Apogee active crossover between the bass panel and the mid/high module.

Lee

cjfrbw · Sep 13, 2015

Graz owns the Apogee name, now. One of the nice things about his own ribbon speakers vs. the rebuilds of the traditional Aps is that they operate at much greater efficiency than the traditional Apogees, allowing much greater range of tubed amplifiers to be used. He uses much stronger magnets.

Hearing a good pair of Apogees in a good setup with proper amplification should be on every audiophile's bucket list.

LL21 · Sep 13, 2015

RBFC said:
I used 4 Krell monoblocks to drive them. This method stll used the internal passive crossover between the tweeter and midrange, resulting in a "manageable load". When triamping the system, the midrange ribbon was 0.1 ohm driven directly.

As to the bass issues, I was repeating what Jason and Leo told me. I thought that the low bass was a moderate challenge to blend with the mid/upper bass. I was using the Apogee active crossover between the bass panel and the mid/high module.

Lee

Yikes, thats a lot of power! Thanks for letting us know...now i know why 'Gallant Diva' whose system has been on AGon for years...has what looks like a half-room full of massives tubes to drive his speakers.

LL21 · Sep 13, 2015

cjfrbw said:
Graz owns the Apogee name, now. One of the nice things about his own ribbon speakers vs. the rebuilds of the traditional Aps is that they operate at much greater efficiency than the traditional Apogees, allowing much greater range of tubed amplifiers to be used. He uses much stronger magnets.

Hearing a good pair of Apogees in a good setup with proper amplification should be on every audiophile's bucket list.

Great to know! I still remember hearing the Stages with ML amplification years ago. Remarkably good and a standout audition after all these years.

bonzo75 · Sep 13, 2015

There was a guy in Switzerland (morricab's friend) who drove his full ranges with three SETs (Nat audio). Must have had stupid electricity consumption. But Graz's apogees are supposed to be much better than originals and you can mod them no extent...aluminium frames, etc etc. Better magnets. Henk from Netherlands is also known for great restores on those principles

LL21 · Sep 13, 2015

bonzo75 said:
There was a guy in Switzerland (morricab's friend) who drove his full ranges with three SETs (Nat audio). Must have had stupid electricity consumption. But Graz's apogees are supposed to be much better than originals and you can mod them no extent...aluminium frames, etc etc. Better magnets. Henk from Netherlands is also known for great restores on those principles

You may have answered this question but have you any thoughts or preference between Audio Analysis vs the Graz work or the Henk work?

bonzo75 · Sep 13, 2015

I need to listen to the bigger version of apogee than the duetta Sigs which I heard. Also each set if it has custom mods can be very different. If one is buying used that has been modded better to listen to that pair first instead of assuming a standard sound. For rock and electronic, apogee seems better, while analysis seems better for classical. Even the analysis I preferred were modded, but those mods from the UK and U.S. Distributor are more standard

BobM · Sep 13, 2015

I own a pair of original Duetta Sig's with a revamped crossover. I updated this with new caps and resistors and potted the inductors, then put them in boxes outside the speaker cabinet. They are nothing short of phenominal and I have no bass buzz from them.

However, the friend I bought them from got a completely new pair from the refurbisher in Nevada. All new ribbons and a redesigned crossover in a sturdier cabinet/frame. These are even better in a lot of ways. If you are ever in New York I am sure he would be glad to have you come over and hear them. IMO they easily compete with many big $$$ speakrs I've heard at shows and beat most of them handily in soundstaging, imaging, naturaleness, top to bottom coherency, slam (yes, slam on a panel).

bonzo75 · Sep 13, 2015

Hi Bob, how do you think they do against Nick's amphitryons

Zero000 · Sep 13, 2015

I think they are phenomenal things. I've onwed refurbished Duettas and now a custom built Duetta made to my specifications. More information than you could ever want on Apogee Duettas here:

http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?9289-Apogee-Duetta-Signature-Rebuild

The new Apogee Duetta Advance 7 from Graz does not use particularly powerful magnets i.e. not much more so than a standard Duetta.

The Synergy did (strong neodymium), but that is no longer available. A sub 20 Watt tube amp with 4 Ohm taps would drive the even larger Definitive.

If you have the money and interest, most restorers are able to build you something pretty special.

Zero000 · Sep 13, 2015

New Facebook page for Apogee - includes Synergy, Definitive and Advance 7 pics.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Apogee-Acoustics/838489719577874?sk=info&tab=page_info

BobM · Sep 13, 2015

Nicks speakers are amazing also but he is driving them with Lamm electronics. And his room is larger so not a completely fair comparison. Neither uses a turntable so I know they can still improve on their sound over their digital rigs. And that it's saying something.

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