Is it the amps, the speakers...or the amps-speakers synergy?

spiritofmusic

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Sorry for the lame title to this thread, but I can't be expected to be inspired all the time :b.
This thread pertains to possibly my last potential component upgrade, the most critical one of all.
6 years ago, I made a happy find in Zu Audio speakers, first the Definitions 2's, and now the 4's.
At the time I was running a full Hovland amp chain, tube HP200 preamp, and SS Radia pwr amp.
A happy circumstance of owning Zus was the potential to go SETs for the first time, and I happily progressed via 25W/ch Audion Black Shadows 845s to current 70W/ch Nat Audio SE2SEs 211s.
Over the last 2 years since running SETs, I've had many opportunities to revisit SS, and none have been compelling for me to switch back, SETs really speak to me wrt flow, natural timbre and warmth.
They also allow me easily to consider going horns, which is a major consideration atm, and Cessaro Chopins and Liszts, Avantgarde Duos and Trios, and Sadurni Staccatos would I'm sure all sound stellar via the Nats. These horns are on my (short)list.
But I'm also very tempted by the Vivid Giya G1s and JBL Everests, however despite some possibility of these working, my Nats SETs are likely to struggle w/the impedance/current/voltage demands from these beasties.

Bonzo is very much of the opinion that if I really rate the Giyas or the Everests, I should invest in the amps that fit them best, either robust SS, or high powered tubes eg VTL, CAT.
My opinion is that my reticence in going back to SS after starting and continuing my love affair w/SETs precludes this as a good idea, no matter how great the G1's or Everests might sound.
Esp since SOTA horns are so attractive, and would give these mega boxes a run for their money.
But I do know G1s would be spectacular, and hence I may be making a mistake deciding based on sticking w/SETs come what may.

So, in a nutshell, am I right to consider amps-spkrs synergy/pairing as a whole, or still go for the best sounding spkrs, and adjust the amps choice accordingly?

Please help me spend ANOTHER lot of cash wisely:cool:!
 

bonzo75

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This thread pertains to possibly my last potential component upgrade, the most critical one of all.

:D - you are like a serial dater on Ashley Madison saying that this is my last date - the most critical one, where I will decide the woman for life
 

bonzo75

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I would never suggest giya over horns, so that way SETs make sense, and Everest can be powered with SETs as well. But I guess your bigger question is should one go away from SETs if the speaker of his choice demands it, or should one ignore that speaker and stay with one that uses SETs
 

spiritofmusic

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That's it Bonzo.
And yes, this may be my last component upgrade, I'm an old timer compared to you, you're a mere amateur in the relentless upgrading club. Anyhow, a man must look at himself in the mirror, and ask what he's achieved in life. Am I going to say "owning horns" or "G1s"?
So yes, my choice of next spkrs is being directed by love of current amps. Should the next move be based on a clean slate, and just my ears?
 

amirm

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My only experience with the Everest is powering them with super high wattage SS amplifiers (300 and 400 watt Mark Levinsons). In both cases, they sounded breathtaking, leaving nothing else one would want :).

On SET amps, the experience you get from them is speaker dependent. So whatever you love about with your current loudspeakers, will mostly be different using a different loudspeaker (due to coupling of the impedance of the amp vs loudspeaker). Not sure if this statement is helpful or not to your cause but I thought I put it out there :).

If I were you, I would pick the loudspeaker I want, use whatever amp I have then and listen. If it sounds good, you are done. If not, then look at upgrading the amp.
 

KeithR

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I used a hybrid approach to this question when I was speaker shopping 5 years ago. I wanted a speaker that could be driven easily by 75-100 tube watts, no more. I value amplifier flexibility and have vacillated from tube to ss and back several times in the past.
 

microstrip

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My only experience with the Everest is powering them with super high wattage SS amplifiers (300 and 400 watt Mark Levinsons). In both cases, they sounded breathtaking, leaving nothing else one would want :).(...)

You must listen loud! The Everest sensitivity at 2.83V @ 1m is 96dB. What would you use to power the 86 dB SPL with 2.83 V @ 1m Revel Salon 2? :eek:
 

amirm

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You must listen loud!
I do and am not going to apologize to anyone for it. :D

We had the ceiling tiles start to disintegrate and shower us with "snow." :D :D

Seriously, no idea how much was required to drive it. They were the amps we had available so used them.
 

microstrip

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(...)
So, in a nutshell, am I right to consider amps-spkrs synergy/pairing as a whole, or still go for the best sounding spkrs, and adjust the amps choice accordingly?

Please help me spend ANOTHER lot of cash wisely:cool:!

My personal advice is to consider amps-spkrs-cables synergy/pairing as a whole. I have tried the second possibility and it cost me a lot of money and time - although I have to say I had a great time with the Sonus Faber Aida's. But feeding them properly for my taste was beyond my resources.
 

Atmasphere

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But I'm also very tempted by the Vivid Giya G1s and JBL Everests, however despite some possibility of these working, my Nats SETs are likely to struggle w/the impedance/current/voltage demands from these beasties.

Bonzo is very much of the opinion that if I really rate the Giyas or the Everests, I should invest in the amps that fit them best, either robust SS, or high powered tubes eg VTL, CAT.
My opinion is that my reticence in going back to SS after starting and continuing my love affair w/SETs precludes this as a good idea, no matter how great the G1's or Everests might sound.
Esp since SOTA horns are so attractive, and would give these mega boxes a run for their money.
But I do know G1s would be spectacular, and hence I may be making a mistake deciding based on sticking w/SETs come what may.

So, in a nutshell, am I right to consider amps-spkrs synergy/pairing as a whole, or still go for the best sounding spkrs, and adjust the amps choice accordingly?

Please help me spend ANOTHER lot of cash wisely:cool:!

You are correct that the speaker/amplifier interface is crucial to getting the most out of your amp/speaker investment dollar!

BTW, The Everest is is not designed for lower powered tube amps and does not play nice with them. It is expecting that the amp can double power as impedance is cut in half, and lower powered tube amps don't do that. So that is one to stay away from if you want to play with SETs. However, you might add the Classic Audio Loudspeakers Hartsfield as it works quite well with SETs.

Since you are playing with SETs here are some pointers:

1) Choose a speaker that has enough efficiency such that when the amp is at about 20% of full power, it will be as loud as you ever expect to play the system at the listening chair. Odd and higher-ordered harmonics begin to show up at levels above about 20%, this can cause the amp to sound 'dynamic' but that is caused by the distortion, not actual dynamic behaviour.

2) avoid 4 ohm speakers if high quality reproduction is your goal. This is actually good advice even if you have a high powered class D amp- all amps make more distortion (which can be heard as brightness and harshness) into lower impedances.

3) the bigger the SET, the less hi-fi. Generally speaking if you want full bandwidth 7-10 watts is about all the power you can do. This has to do with how the output transformer is built- the bigger, the more restricted the bandwidth.
 

PeterA

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2) avoid 4 ohm speakers if high quality reproduction is your goal. This is actually good advice even if you have a high powered class D amp- all amps make more distortion (which can be heard as brightness and harshness) into lower impedances.

Atmasphere, Do you mean to say that there are no speakers with 4 ohm impedance that are capable of high quality reproduction? I'm curious about this advice to spiritofmusic, because the two speakers that have sounded best to me in multiple auditions have been 4 ohm speakers, the Magico M Project and Q3. To me, high quality reproduction is exactly what these speakers do, though they do need very high quality, high current amplifiers to sound their best, IMO.
 

Argonaut

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Quite Peter, I was thinking along similar lines myself!

Point (3) also raised an eye brow, until one considered the respondents commercial interests! Just how much should this middle aged Homonid consider my current OPT's of choice bandwidth limited and not fit for purpose?

POWER BANDWIDTH
(-3dB points) 5Hz to 80kHz.

FREQUENCY RESPONSE
(-3dB points at 1 watt) 0.5Hz to 120 kHz.
 

Rodney Gold

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Its the speakers and the amp and the room
I went all in and bought the G1's and a devialet and then rebuilt my room to suit the combo
I could write reams on what the system sounds like etc .. but suffice it to say that every time you listen , its not just music , its an experience.
 

GaryProtein

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. . . . avoid 4 ohm speakers if high quality reproduction is your goal. This is actually good advice even if you have a high powered class D amp- all amps make more distortion (which can be heard as brightness and harshness) into lower impedances.
. . . .

REALLY ? ? ? ?

My IRS-V is 4 ohms, the Genesis Dragon is 4 ohms, the Wilson XLF is 4 ohms, the Sonus Faber Aida is 4 ohms, the list goes on.

Apparently the need or desire to "avoid 4 ohm speakers when high quality reproduction is the goal" is anything but universal.
 

Rodney Gold

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At one stage , it was an audiophiles badge of honour if one had a speaker with a difficult load.. kinda like the more difficult , the more "audiophile"
I have a pal with Tannoy royal kingdoms and the bass drivers dip real low , he has destroyed many amps with these.. Only stuff like the big krells etc work on it..
 

spiritofmusic

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I think this is the way it's going to go. A few more changes incl poss move to top of the line battery pwrd Nat Audio Magnetostat linestage to max transparency esp, and final phase of power changes to go all-US rhodium sockets/all-US rhodium mains cable plugs.
At this point, I will have maxxed out my current system as practically far as I can, and I will know how good my Zus-Nat SETs synergy has evolved to be.
Now, if eg Giya G1s were the only radical upgrade to the Zus available (based on the glowing reviews/highly interesting design and tech/reasonable price compared to other bleeding edge competitors), and gave me things only the Zus could dream of, then it would be stupid not to give serious consideration, and switch out the SETs as a result.
However, G1s are not the only radical alternatives, I'm most taken w/horns, having got addicted to the concept thru multiple exposure to AG Duos, and as we know SETs and horns are a match made in Heaven.
My horns shortlist of two atm is the Sadurnis Staccatos and AG Trios/Basshorn G2s, and in effect I'll have my cake and eat it going horns and keep SETs rather than G1s and ditch the SETs.
 

Rodney Gold

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i have listened to the AG duos and trios ..with SETs etc
Different sound to the G1's and devialet for sure..
depends what you listen to and how loud as to the direction to go.
 

Atmasphere

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Atmasphere, Do you mean to say that there are no speakers with 4 ohm impedance that are capable of high quality reproduction? I'm curious about this advice to spiritofmusic, because the two speakers that have sounded best to me in multiple auditions have been 4 ohm speakers, the Magico M Project and Q3. To me, high quality reproduction is exactly what these speakers do, though they do need very high quality, high current amplifiers to sound their best, IMO.

REALLY ? ? ? ?

My IRS-V is 4 ohms, the Genesis Dragon is 4 ohms, the Wilson XLF is 4 ohms, the Sonus Faber Aida is 4 ohms, the list goes on.

Apparently the need or desire to "avoid 4 ohm speakers when high quality reproduction is the goal" is anything but universal.

To the former, no.

to the latter: Really. Here's why: first, ALL amplifiers, tube, solid state, class D, have higher distortion into lower impedances. This makes the result harsher and brighter (because the distortion components that are increased are IM and higher ordered harmonics, both to which the ear is quite sensitive). Tube amplifiers will often loose an octave of bandwidth on the bottom end due to the reduced efficiency of the output transformer. Quite often the power is reduced for the same reason.

Further, as anyone with a 4 ohm speaker knows, the speaker cable is quite critical! When I was a kid we got away with using zip cord and it seemed to work fine. Well it did, primarily because the speakers we used back then were often 16 ohms.

Now you might think your 4 ohm speaker sounds great and maybe it does. But the argument you are using there is not conclusive- what if the speaker worked exactly the same but was eight ohms?? The result would be it that it would sound smoother and more detailed than it does right now because the amplifier would not be working so hard to drive it. Think about that for a moment- you really don't want to work the amp hard if you can help it; hard-working amps make more distortion, and if you think that isn't audible you are simply wrong.

Now in the case of the OP, a SET amplifier is desired. He had solid state and went to SET so that is part of the context of this thread. Now I'm not an SET fan, but I have played with them a lot, and the simple fact is you can put a 4 ohm tap on them but they are not going to do 4 ohms very well at all. They are best off driving a 16 ohm load off of the 16 ohm tap. This is because the output transformer on any SET is the most critical part of the whole amplifier, and should be given the best chance to perform to its capacity.

If you doubt what I am saying about 4 ohms here, take a look at the specs on your amplifier! All I am pointing out is that if you want high quality reproduction, driving the distortion up is not the way to do it. That should be pretty obvious! IOW, it is not that the speaker isn't a performer- obviously it is. This isn't about the speaker though (other than the impedance), its about the fact that all amplifiers don't sound as good driving 4 ohms as they do 8 or even 16. Now its true that solid state amps won't make as much power into higher impedances, but they trade off that power for greater finesse. This is one of those cases where not only can you see it in the spec sheets, but you can hear it as well.

If you still don't buy my argument, consider that your position is one of expectation bias: you spent the money on the big amp and low impedance speakers, it had better sound good sort of thing.
 

bplexico

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Mar 28, 2011
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The Giyas are in my opinion just wonderful sounding. If it were me I would start with speaker first and then worry about mating it with the correct amp. I would not pick an amp first and then find the right speaker. I have made that mistake before. All in my humble opinion of course. Did I mention how great the Giyas sound ( truth be told I have only heard the G3s which were amazing to my ears).
 

YashN

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Jun 28, 2015
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You are correct that the speaker/amplifier interface is crucial to getting the most out of your amp/speaker investment dollar!

Since you are playing with SETs here are some pointers:

Thanks for the very interesting info, Atmasphere. Nicely put question in this thread too.

If I were to settle on equipment and the amp + speakers combination, I would try active crossovers before the amps, paired with omni speakers.

Perhaps one day I'll get to use my DIY SET tube amp for the mid-to-high regions and my SS for the lower ones.

One of the pointers reminded me that I did see the recommendation to use smaller transformers for my SET amp, but I have big Edcors.
 

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