Nagra HD DAC - anyone chose balanced output

pjwd · Aug 16, 2015

Hello- first post from me after reading up a lot about DACs on this site - thanks everyone !

Has anyone who has purchased the Nagra opted for the balanced output transformers on the XLR out ( with the corresponding loss of volume control). I am considering one of these dacs and wonder if this would provide increased SQ if you were running through a fully balanced pre and amp combo. I would love to hear of any experiences or thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Phil

jfrech · Aug 16, 2015

pjwd said:
Hello- first post from me after reading up a lot about DACs on this site - thanks everyone !

Has anyone who has purchased the Nagra opted for the balanced output transformers on the XLR out ( with the corresponding loss of volume control). I am considering one of these dacs and wonder if this would provide increased SQ if you were running through a fully balanced pre and amp combo. I would love to hear of any experiences or thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Phil

Hi Phil, I'm a huge Nagra fan. They make some very nice sounding gear. Sorry I can't directly answer your question, those Nagra volume controls are VERY good. So it will take a very good preamp to beat it. I owned a Nagra PLL for years...and recently went to a Robert Koda K10. Took a 3x jump in price to really improve...the Koda has a herculean volume control that's custom made. I'll also add the balancing transformers in the Nagra are GREAT to...which adds to the complexity of which way you go.

What Pre amp(s) are you considering?

pjwd · Aug 16, 2015

jfrech said:
Hi Phil, I'm a huge Nagra fan. They make some very nice sounding gear. Sorry I can't directly answer your question, those Nagra volume controls are VERY good. So it will take a very good preamp to beat it. I owned a Nagra PLL for years...and recently went to a Robert Koda K10. Took a 3x jump in price to really improve...the Koda has a herculean volume control that's custom made. I'll also add the balancing transformers in the Nagra are GREAT to...which adds to the complexity of which way you go.

What Pre amp(s) are you considering?

Thanks jfrech - I have the Halcro dm10 driving a pair of dm 38 and run a fully balanced signal at the current time from a Forssell dac - I listen to a TT so will still use the pre for both sources ( at least that is my intent - listening may change that) - if I want to revert to using nagra volume I can just go unbalanced and it would seemingly be no great loss as the standard balanced out is apparently pseudo - it is slightly strange that a pro based outfit do not have balanced as standard

Phil

jfrech · Aug 16, 2015

pjwd said:
Thanks jfrech - I have the Halcro dm10 driving a pair of dm 38 and run a fully balanced signal at the current time from a Forssell dac - I listen to a TT so will still use the pre for both sources ( at least that is my intent - listening may change that) - if I want to revert to using nagra volume I can just go unbalanced and it would seemingly be no great loss as the standard balanced out is apparently pseudo - it is slightly strange that a pro based outfit do not have balanced as standard

Phil

I've heard your Halco gear. It's excellent. Especially that built in phono stage ! I'll have to disagree, the Nagra HD DAC isn't pseudo...it's a fully legit fully balanced output with the transformer output option. While your Halcro likely uses circuitry to achieve balance, Nagra is just choosing a different path. My Koda K10 preamp also uses input and output balancing transformers. It mates perfectly with my Ayre MXR's...which uses circuitry like your Halcro...

Given what you've said now...I think the balanced output option is the way to go. Again, I am just speculating based on my experience with other Nagra gear...

Hopefully someone with a HD DAC can give you more info

jfrech · Aug 16, 2015

PS, I hope you're considering the Nagra MPS power supply also. I have it with my Nagra VPS phono stage. It's a significant improvement over the already very good standard power supplies...

Mike Lavigne · Aug 16, 2015

pjwd said:
Hello- first post from me after reading up a lot about DACs on this site - thanks everyone !

Has anyone who has purchased the Nagra opted for the balanced output transformers on the XLR out ( with the corresponding loss of volume control). I am considering one of these dacs and wonder if this would provide increased SQ if you were running through a fully balanced pre and amp combo. I would love to hear of any experiences or thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Phil

hi Phil,

welcome to WBF.

I've owned the Playback Designs MPS-5 for 9 years now. it has the same dac inside it (designed by Andreas Koch), that is in the Nagra. the PD sounds better in single ended output than in XLR/Balanced output in my system and other systems I've heard it in. there could be multiple reasons for my experience other than the PD unit itself. but I offer my experience simply as a data point.

I'm going to wager that system context will be more significant than the actual interface/output used.

Steve Williams · Aug 16, 2015

Hi Mike

Is it really the same DAC inside? I thought this was newly designed by Andreas and has an MSRP of $27K for the DAC

Mike Lavigne · Aug 16, 2015

Steve Williams said:
Hi Mike

Is it really the same DAC inside? I thought this was newly designed by Andreas and has an MSRP of $27K for the DAC

that is my understanding. but I do not know that for 100% certain. I'd say it's likely enough the same that one that you can relate the two to a strong degree.

if the Nagra can be software upgraded like the MPS-5 then I'd bet they are identical. I don't know that about the Nagra.

obviously the Nagra is made in Switzerland and Andreas would not be helping a competitor if it was not financially attractive so the price difference has nothing to do with why they would be different. in fact, I would expect that Andreas would insist that the Nagra be a lot more money to protect the PD.

I doubt he would do a redesign and then also have to support more than one software upgrade process.

Steve Williams · Aug 16, 2015

I've heard it is a totally different DAC but I might be wrong

audio.bill · Aug 16, 2015

After a little research I believe I found the answer. Nagra states: "Its circuits, that adopt the DSD 2X (Direct Stream Digital 128), were developed in association with Andreas Koch, the pioneering engineer of the DSD format."

From the review in 6moons: "Fully DSD64/128 and 24/384kHz PCM compliant, the HD DAC is based on a small core module from Andreas Koch of Playback Designs as probably hifi's ultimate authority on DSD. From him Nagra commissioned a custom ceramic board. The heart of its circuit is a Xilinx FPGA coded to operate as a true 1-bit DAC since commercial true 1-bit chips no longer exist. The sampling frequency reaches 5.6MHz and the internal calculations use 72-bit precision. This method produces a signal with such quality that the steep-slope input filters on the analog section can be eliminated. The result is that the harmonics and transients are perfectly maintained, allowing the music to conserve its natural depth and essence. Everything pre/post the custom Koch board is Nagra's own. They tap directly into Koch's analog reconstruction filter to follow up with their own ultra-precision chip-based impedance converters and drivers for each half of the symmetrical output. This direct-coupled stage applies neither voltage gain nor feedback but operates at a truly colossal slew rate." The complete review with further details can be seen here.

I hope that this helps to clarify the situation.

Steve Williams · Aug 16, 2015

It does. Thanks Bill. There had to be some difference with a $27K MSRP

ashandger · Aug 16, 2015

Just FYI, the HD Dac was extremely highly rated by Alan Sircom in his review for HiFi+ mag. The full review is available on Nagra Website. He also used the MPS power supply.
Hope this helps!

pjwd · Aug 16, 2015

Thanks All - I have decided to go with the balanced out and yes I am getting the fancy power supply but only one isolation base - lack of commitment ? ( although from experience I would not be surprised if it makes a difference it will give me an opportunity to play with footers and bases) - I will post results when it turns up

cheers,

Phil

audio.bill · Aug 16, 2015

Phil - Congrats on making your decision and getting one of the top DACs available. I look forward to your impressions once you have it integrated in your system. Enjoy the tunes and welcome to WBF!

Steve Williams · Aug 16, 2015

audio.bill said:
Phil - Congrats on making your decision and getting one of the top DACs available. I look forward to your impressions once you have it integrated in your system. Enjoy the tunes and welcome to WBF!

I agree Bill about this DAC

tunes · Aug 17, 2015

Congrats Phil. Once you start with Nagra, it's hard not to get the bug. Like jfrech, i agree that they make some incredible gear.
Here's a drool worthy link for fellow Nagra fans.
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/08/zellaton-speakers-nagra-installation-by.html?m=1

jfrech · Aug 17, 2015

Congrats Phil !

I've heard the MPS with and with out the VFS base. You can hear the diff...but it's smaller compared to the VFS under my VPS for example (which is rather dramatic-they've done their homework on isolation). I skipped the VFS for my MPS....

tunes · Aug 24, 2015

Phil,
Steve G just posted some impressions of the nagra hd dac. Here's the link.
http://www.cnet.com/news/nagra-hd-dac-digital-converter-high-end-audio/
Cheers,
Chris

pjwd · Aug 25, 2015

tunes said:
Phil,
Steve G just posted some impressions of the nagra hd dac. Here's the link.
http://www.cnet.com/news/nagra-hd-dac-digital-converter-high-end-audio/
Cheers,
Chris

Chris - thanks for the link and all others for the good wishes - I am looking forward to getting in the rack - will be interesting to compare it to the forssell MDAC which delivers great performance per $

Cheers,
Phil

isquirrel · Sep 16, 2015

pjwd said:
Hello- first post from me after reading up a lot about DACs on this site - thanks everyone !

Has anyone who has purchased the Nagra opted for the balanced output transformers on the XLR out ( with the corresponding loss of volume control). I am considering one of these dacs and wonder if this would provide increased SQ if you were running through a fully balanced pre and amp combo. I would love to hear of any experiences or thoughts on this.

Thanks,

Phil

I have ordered them on mine, it will be here late next wee, Have had my eye on it for a while friends who have heard it say its really something special, I am keen to hear how it stacks up to my other DAC. Will post initial impressions then but I understand that they need a considerable amount of burn in. Did you get yours with the MPS and bases?

Nagra HD DAC - anyone chose balanced output

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