Best Choice JL Sub, Gotham, F212, or F113

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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www.fightingconcepts.com
When an orchestra is playing on stage, isn't the resultant sound of several cellos, tubas and string basses (and everything else) a "phase coherent mess"?

The sound waves of an orchestra are not like the photons from a laser all the same wavelength and exactly in phase, but they are nevertheless additive in the totality of what we hear.

I'm sure you understand that to add post-recording phase shifts (via one's system) would obliterate the beauty of an admittedly phase-incoherent performance. With a wonderful system like yours, it would be easier to hear the effects of improper phase. Perhaps you could make some temporary adjustments that would allow you to evaluate the effects of phase shift between your towers and subs????

Lee
 

GaryProtein

VIP/Donor
Jul 25, 2012
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You make a good point.
 

Rodney Gold

Member
Jan 29, 2014
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I use a miniDSP DDRC-22, A DIRAC solution.. I limit correction to under 150hz..it sees my G1's and 5 subs as a whole , wonderful device and amazing results
$899...
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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405
When an orchestra is playing on stage, isn't the resultant sound of several cellos, tubas and string basses (and everything else) a "phase coherent mess"?

The sound waves of an orchestra are not like the photons from a laser all the same wavelength and exactly in phase, but they are nevertheless additive in the totality of what we hear.

That is certainly true but in the case of an orchestra playing you are producing the music , whatever way it was ... You don't want to add the phase shifts to your reproduction ..

On the subject, I would say that I would prefer not to use a crossover in the path of the main speakers. I like for that the Geddes approach. I admit however that this is not based on anything solid, only a hunch since I have successfully used the Geddes approach in the past.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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(...) With respect to Wilson, I just think for the money there are far better speakers out there. If a client is using Wilson, then that is their own choice, my role is simply to help them improve their room acoustics and perhaps if they are open to it educate them about the off axis response of the Wilson as compared to other speaker designs. There are a bunch of other speaker designs out there that I think are not great either, such as B&W, and then others that know what they are doing but make very questionable (in my opinion) voicing decisions such as Raidho. (...)

I accept and respect your opinion. I believe that it shows your preference, your beliefs and what you feel about the sound of the those speakers. But it also shows that you fail to appreciate the exceptional sound quality that such systems can produce when properly set, using methods and rules that do not use measurements for placement and fine tuning and compatible ancillaries.

IMHO, considering your solid and firm opinions, no one with a reasonable mind should use your services to work with such brands, as most probably you will be compromising their full audiophile potential, either by audio treatments or placement. IMHO, in the high-end, if we do not trust a product you should stay away from it.
 

infinitely baffled

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Jul 2, 2015
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thread subscribed.
fascinating :)
 

dallasjustice

Member Sponsor
Apr 12, 2011
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Prejudice Marketing.

Is it okay with you for industry professionals to have professional opinions? IMO, one of the biggest factors holding the hi-end audio industry back are the many industry professionals who only feel the need to express opinions which please their customer's preconceived prejudice. You know the usually audiophile truisms:
1. Zero feedback amps are the best.
2. DSD512 is the holy grail.
3. It's not a highend system unless there's an analog volume control and pre-amp.
4. Silk dome tweeters are better than aluminum; wait, that one is true. :D
5. DSP is always mid-Fi.
6. Room acoustics is a black art purveyed by spirit conjurors.
7. Microphones always lie. They should never be used.

Did I miss any?
I accept and respect your opinion. I believe that it shows your preference, your beliefs and what you feel about the sound of the those speakers. But it also shows that you fail to appreciate the exceptional sound quality that such systems can produce when properly set, using methods and rules that do not use measurements for placement and fine tuning and compatible ancillaries.

IMHO, considering your solid and firm opinions, no one with a reasonable mind should use your services to work with such brands, as most probably you will be compromising their full audiophile potential, either by audio treatments or placement. IMHO, in the high-end, if we do not trust a product you should stay away from it.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
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Is it okay with you for industry professionals to have professional opinions?

Surely yes, IMHO they are welcome. As long as they are presented as opinions and properly explained and debated, they increase our audiophile knowledge.

IMO, one of the biggest factors holding the hi-end audio industry back are the many industry professionals who only feel the need to express opinions which please their customer's preconceived prejudice. You know the usually audiophile truisms:
1. Zero feedback amps are the best.
2. DSD512 is the holy grail.
3. It's not a highend system unless there's an analog volume control and pre-amp.
4. Silk dome tweeters are better than aluminum; wait, that one is true. :D
5. DSP is always mid-Fi.
6. Room acoustics is a black art purveyed by spirit conjurors.
7. Microphones always lie. They should never be used.

Did I miss any?

At less one hundred. Fortunately we have WBF to find them!

And yes customers with preconceived ideas should be punished. Specially those who enjoy listening without subs ... ;) (I have two ML Descent I, otherwise I would keep silent).
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
I accept and respect your opinion. I believe that it shows your preference, your beliefs and what you feel about the sound of the those speakers. But it also shows that you fail to appreciate the exceptional sound quality that such systems can produce when properly set, using methods and rules that do not use measurements for placement and fine tuning and compatible ancillaries.

IMHO, considering your solid and firm opinions, no one with a reasonable mind should use your services to work with such brands, as most probably you will be compromising their full audiophile potential, either by audio treatments or placement. IMHO, in the high-end, if we do not trust a product you should stay away from it.

The reason people are using set up "methods and rules" that don't involve acoustic measurements is that they have no idea how to take and interpret such measurements and use them to improve the sound of their system. In the bass, where the room dominates, I cannot see ANY benefits to set up techniques that do not involve acoustic measurements. In the mid/high frequencies, for setting speaker toe, separation, rake after room treatment, I don't find measurements useful. Others, like Jim Smith, agree. Read his book if you haven't already.

It's my belief that most set up routines were designed by manufacturers for dealers without the requisite technical knowledge to properly use acoustic measurements. Why would you not use all the tools at your disposal? I am not saying that measurements trump all. They are a tool in the toolbox. Your ears are the other main tool. There is no "magic" in manufacturer specific set up routines, that's just more audiophile BS.

I am strongly in the camp that acoustic measurements as taken by a measurement microphone do not correspond "neatly" to what the ear/brain hears, particularly in the mid/high frequencies and with respect to the perception of reflected sounds.

As for your other comment I find that a little insulting to my professional work ethic. Honestly, my role is to help clients improve the sound of their systems, whether they have Wilson or Vivid or any other speaker brand. The room treatment, particularly for the high frequencies, is dependent on the off axis response of the speakers. The choices I'd need to make as a designer to treat (or not) reflections will depend strongly on that off axis response. When the subject comes up with a client about why I recommend more aggressive absorption for a particular speaker with poor off axis, well that is when I will explain to them simply and matter of factly the science, and if they are interested refer to the great body of knowledge assembled by people like Toole about human perception of reflections. I'd like to see an argument from someone that explains why poor off axis response is acceptable in a loudspeaker that aims for SOTA, when the weight of peer reviewed science points strongly in the other way.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
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The reason people are using set up "methods and rules" that don't involve acoustic measurements is that they have no idea how to take and interpret such measurements and use them to improve the sound of their system. In the bass, where the room dominates, I cannot see ANY benefits to set up techniques that do not involve acoustic measurements. In the mid/high frequencies, for setting speaker toe, separation, rake after room treatment, I don't find measurements useful. Others, like Jim Smith, agree. Read his book if you haven't already.

It's my belief that most set up routines were designed by manufacturers for dealers without the requisite technical knowledge to properly use acoustic measurements. Why would you not use all the tools at your disposal? I am not saying that measurements trump all. They are a tool in the toolbox. Your ears are the other main tool. There is no "magic" in manufacturer specific set up routines, that's just more audiophile BS.

I am strongly in the camp that acoustic measurements as taken by a measurement microphone do not correspond "neatly" to what the ear/brain hears, particularly in the mid/high frequencies and with respect to the perception of reflected sounds.

As for your other comment I find that a little insulting to my professional work ethic. Honestly, my role is to help clients improve the sound of their systems, whether they have Wilson or Vivid or any other speaker brand. The room treatment, particularly for the high frequencies, is dependent on the off axis response of the speakers. The choices I'd need to make as a designer to treat (or not) reflections will depend strongly on that off axis response. When the subject comes up with a client about why I recommend more aggressive absorption for a particular speaker with poor off axis, well that is when I will explain to them simply and matter of factly the science, and if they are interested refer to the great body of knowledge assembled by people like Toole about human perception of reflections. I'd like to see an argument from someone that explains why poor off axis response is acceptable in a loudspeaker that aims for SOTA, when the weight of peer reviewed science points strongly in the other way.

Sorry you think I am insulting your ethic considering that your methods are not the best to set speakers you do not like - it was not my intention. It was an opinion of someone who listened to those brands sounding exceptional. As far as I know we openly debate subjective opinions in WBF. Why acoustic treatments and set up of speakers should be a taboo?

BTW, I am addressing systems set up by the methods used by Wilson Audio people for their speakers and Sumiko for Sonus Faber.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
590
4
330
SF Bay Area, CA, USA
Sorry you think I am insulting your ethic considering that your methods are not the best to set speakers you do not like - it was not my intention. It was an opinion of someone who listened to those brands sounding exceptional. As far as I know we openly debate subjective opinions in WBF. Why acoustic treatments and set up of speakers should be a taboo?

I would not like the takeaway from this exchange to be that "I don't like Wilsons". What I was trying to say in the other thread which you and Steve referred to, and has been taken slightly the wrong way, is that I think there are better choices out there if you are spending that kind of money. I don't want to be known as the consultant who "doesn't like Wilsons / won't work with them / will tell you they are crap and question the size of your manhood" :) I'm speaker and brand agnostic, those things are the clients choices, and I'll say it again, my role is to help everyone who is my client improve their sound, regardless of what they are using.
 

Mobiusman

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
704
560
1,655
Jersey Shore- waterside
I am about to move my system into a new room that measures 32x20x11. I currently have a pair of F113s in my dual purpose theater/2-channel listening room which measures 24x18x11. The subs are matched with Wilson alexandria X2S2 speakers. I love the F113s, which are crossed over very low, but add a substantive foundation to the music. They blend so well with the main speakers that I would challenge any experienced listener to determine if they were on. I will leave the F113s in the theater when I move my 2 channel system to its new home. I would be interested in anyone's opinion who has heard all three subwoofers mentioned. My concern about going with Gothams (despite the price for two of them), is that I have heard them challenged to integrate well with the speed of the main speakers. I wonder whether the F113s would have enough capacity for the larger room. The F212s are in the middle. I've never heard these, and wonder if they go as deep as the subs with 13" drivers.

Thanks

Brian

Brian, remember that the most important issue is not the total room volume, unless it is too small, but rather what is happening at your listening position. I too have 2 F-113's and frequently listen with a slider behind me open that projects out onto water and thus is essentially infinity. While I am sure that my room does not have as much treatment as your new room, my house design means that the volume of my charged space greatly exceeds your room volume and is about 18,000 cubic feet, with the doors closed and infinite with them open. Both subs come in around 35 hz with my new speakers Vivid G3's and absolutely rock my soul. Naturally they sound better with the doors open.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
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Have been reading this more with an appreciation of the level of sophistication here, than truly understanding every bit of what the experts here have been saying.

In my case, the Velodyne Distributor came over late today to take our old DD18 in trade for the newer DD18+, and to set it up using the Velodyne Software and mic.

The Wilsons run in parallel, and we keep the DD18+ strictly below 40hz (24db rolloff). He did play with the microphone, Auto and Manual settings in the 8-band EQ using the sweep tone...as well as adjusting the Velodyne phase and countour settings. It is a trial-set up since the sub is new, and needs to be played for a while before it settles in anyway. That said, he did manage to get 15hz-nearly 200hz within 3db+/- which is nice, and so far it sounds very good.

It feels more rock solid than the older DD18. The bass feels like it 'shifts/wavers' less and just 'hits' more effortlessly.
 

BFlowers

Well-Known Member
Apr 23, 2010
103
15
923
Westlake Texas
Have been reading this more with an appreciation of the level of sophistication here, than truly understanding every bit of what the experts here have been saying.

In my case, the Velodyne Distributor came over late today to take our old DD18 in trade for the newer DD18+, and to set it up using the Velodyne Software and mic.

The Wilsons run in parallel, and we keep the DD18+ strictly below 40hz (24db rolloff). He did play with the microphone, Auto and Manual settings in the 8-band EQ using the sweep tone...as well as adjusting the Velodyne phase and countour settings. It is a trial-set up since the sub is new, and needs to be played for a while before it settles in anyway. That said, he did manage to get 15hz-nearly 200hz within 3db+/- which is nice, and so far it sounds very good.

It feels more rock solid than the older DD18. The bass feels like it 'shifts/wavers' less and just 'hits' more effortlessly.
I ended up getting a pair of F113s v2. Installed yesterday. I can tell that it will take some work to get them integrated.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
I ended up getting a pair of F113s v2. Installed yesterday. I can tell that it will take some work to get them integrated.

Congrats! Dual subs if def the way to go from everything i read. If we had the room, we would have gone that way as well. Look forward to reading all about them after you've got them setup!
 

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