Best Choice JL Sub, Gotham, F212, or F113

BFlowers

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Apr 23, 2010
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I am about to move my system into a new room that measures 32x20x11. I currently have a pair of F113s in my dual purpose theater/2-channel listening room which measures 24x18x11. The subs are matched with Wilson alexandria X2S2 speakers. I love the F113s, which are crossed over very low, but add a substantive foundation to the music. They blend so well with the main speakers that I would challenge any experienced listener to determine if they were on. I will leave the F113s in the theater when I move my 2 channel system to its new home. I would be interested in anyone's opinion who has heard all three subwoofers mentioned. My concern about going with Gothams (despite the price for two of them), is that I have heard them challenged to integrate well with the speed of the main speakers. I wonder whether the F113s would have enough capacity for the larger room. The F212s are in the middle. I've never heard these, and wonder if they go as deep as the subs with 13" drivers.

Thanks

Brian
 

GaryProtein

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As far as the JL Audio subs are concerned, a pair of F113's will probably be fine for music. The F212's somewhat better and the G213's will have the most reserve.

If I were to get new subs, I would STRONGLY consider and probably get the Paradigm Sub1 or the bigger Sub2 for the best low end. The Sub2 is somewhat less costly than the G213 and I'm sure at least as good. (I don't know current pricing, but the Gotham has had a significant recent price increase. Either way, I'd rather have two F113's over one G213.)
 
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dallasjustice

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To what do you refer when you mention "speed" in the context of integrating a sub with main speaker??

I am about to move my system into a new room that measures 32x20x11. I currently have a pair of F113s in my dual purpose theater/2-channel listening room which measures 24x18x11. The subs are matched with Wilson alexandria X2S2 speakers. I love the F113s, which are crossed over very low, but add a substantive foundation to the music. They blend so well with the main speakers that I would challenge any experienced listener to determine if they were on. I will leave the F113s in the theater when I move my 2 channel system to its new home. I would be interested in anyone's opinion who has heard all three subwoofers mentioned. My concern about going with Gothams (despite the price for two of them), is that I have heard them challenged to integrate well with the speed of the main speakers. I wonder whether the F113s would have enough capacity for the larger room. The F212s are in the middle. I've never heard these, and wonder if they go as deep as the subs with 13" drivers.

Thanks

Brian
 

BFlowers

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Apr 23, 2010
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Westlake Texas
Speed to me means that the subwoofer doesn't call attention to itself by not "keeping up" with the main speakers. There are probably other terms that would be appropriate. excess energy, overhang, etc. I had a REL studio III in the past which amongst other things had this fault. I didn't mention this in my original post, but my one of the things I like about the JLs is the ability to EQ out the primary offending frequency peak. I'm sure that goes a long way in improving overall bass performance of a room. It's something I would want in any future sub I would consider purchasing.
 

dallasjustice

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Okay. I understand. Sometimes that word is used along with "fast." I started a thread about the topic of subwoofer group delay and latency. There were some very thoughtful comments in that thread.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?10671-Fastest-Subs

I have a lot of experience with subs. I've found there's no best method for integration but there are better and worse methods. I've found the knobs on a JL sub are primitive and inferior compared to an active setup and DSP in digital domain in your server before the DAC.

The problem you will have is that group delay is never totally consistent no matter the sub. And it's key to get flat phase at crossover. Also time alignment won't ever happen running them in parallel to your main speakers. IOW, the sub's "speed" isn't that significant compared with the setup. All drivers need proper crossovers. That includes subs/main speakers too.


Speed to me means that the subwoofer doesn't call attention to itself by not "keeping up" with the main speakers. There are probably other terms that would be appropriate. excess energy, overhang, etc. I had a REL studio III in the past which amongst other things had this fault. I didn't mention this in my original post, but my one of the things I like about the JLs is the ability to EQ out the primary offending frequency peak. I'm sure that goes a long way in improving overall bass performance of a room. It's something I would want in any future sub I would consider purchasing.
 
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NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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Earlier today, without having seen this thread, I almost started a new thread regarding ultra low bass extension and content.

And now that I've just seen this new thread; I will simply ask a question here:
In music listening, from LPs and CD/SACDs...we know that an organ can get real low...say 16Hz with the big pipe; and some drum kits can hit incredible dynamics.
Also, some synthesizers can go lower than 16Hz...How common is it? ...Say with Classical, Organ music, Electronica music and other genres using dynamic drum kits...Rock&Roll, Heavy Metal, Rap, etc.

And part 2 of the same question: With movies, some films on Blu-ray have content recorded between 1Hz and 10Hz...is it mainly coming from synthesizers?


Now, with the answers coming up; which subs are best @ reproducing those with verve (@ high decibels)?

And last, good bass impact and extension in music...good enough too with movies, or not?

* This is still very much related to the OP's topic...best choice of subs for music reproduction...with that dual-purpose extended stem...movies.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
The new JL subs now have a 20-point full DSP EQ room correction algorithm, IIRC.

Lee
Brian

You and I have the same speakers and you have heard my F113 Fathom in my present home as well as my G113 Gotham in my last house. Having owned both I can tell you that the Fathom pair will suffice as I know what both will do. Even if my room were as big as my last or even as big as yours the F113 will suffice. The master volume control on my Gothams were barely "on" otherwise the room would have been way overloaded. If you're looking for that ambient sound stick with the F113 and go with the newer model with the better algorithm. That's what I would do but as they say YMMV
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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^^^^ You mean G213. There is no G113.
 

audio.bill

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May 27, 2013
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The upcoming JL Audio Fathom v2 subs are the ones that will have the multi-point room correction. Since I don't believe that they are shipping yet they are not on their website.
 

Kal Rubinson

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I looked on the website, but didn't see anything about the new EQ capabilities.

From the v2 user's manual: "To help properly integrate your subwoofers with your room’s acoustics, all Fathom v2 subwoofers employ a powerful, Digital Automatic Room Optimization (D.A.R.O.) system. This system deploys eighteen bands of digital equalization to tame room acoustics and deliver spine-tingling sub-bass accuracy."
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
^^^^ You mean G213. There is no G113.

correct.
The new F113 will be fine in the room. I have had the Gotham subs in a very large room and yes they were good but for the ambient sound Brian wants the F113 v2 is sufficient. When mine are on , just as with his system one would be hard pressed to know whether they are on or off. You can certainly spend the extra money Brian and knowing you I suspect you will buy the Gotham but IMHO having owned both the F113 V2 is quite sufficient
 

dallasjustice

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I use a pair of f113 in a medium size room.(14.5'x24'x9.25'). They are more than enough. The DSP on board might help in the new version. But one needs to address the other side of the coin to get the subs to really sound fast and totally disappear from the system. My f113 subs cannot be heard and cannot be localized at seated position. All they do is flatten out the bass, provide a major boost in dynamics and make the lower midrange much more textured and realistic. The DSP inside the JL could help a little. But the OP wants a "fast" sub. That can't be done with anything inside the subs.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I use a pair of f113 in a medium size room.(14.5'x24'x9.25'). They are more than enough. The DSP on board might help in the new version. But one needs to address the other side of the coin to get the subs to really sound fast and totally disappear from the system. My f113 subs cannot be heard and cannot be localized at seated position. All they do is flatten out the bass, provide a major boost in dynamics and make the lower midrange much more textured and realistic. The DSP inside the JL could help a little. But the OP wants a "fast" sub. That can't be done with anything inside the subs.

The word fast or speed when it comes to a sub only adds confusion. My subs totally disappear. In fact several years ago when Alon Wolf and his partner Yaier visited me I was asked if the subs were on or off. The G213 IMO is overkill. I have had both and as Dallasjustice says, the F113 is more than adequate
 

dallasjustice

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A lot depends on where one decides to crossover. It's much easier to integrate such that the sub disappears if the crossover is very low. I think a lot folks who use the parallel sub method favor 30hz. That seems sensible.

The word fast or speed when it comes to a sub only adds confusion. My subs totally disappear. In fact several years ago when Alon Wolf and his partner Yaier visited me I was asked if the subs were on or off. The G213 IMO is overkill. I have had both and as Dallasjustice says, the F113 is more than adequate
 

Sharp 1080

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Apr 20, 2010
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I have a pair of F113's with Wilson Maxx 3's speakers in a room that measures 20'x15'. More than adequate. I am also crossed over in the 30's.
 

Nyal Mellor

Industry Expert
Jul 14, 2010
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SF Bay Area, CA, USA
The new JL Fathom series (v2) incorporates the automatic multi-point EQ and a more powerful amplifier over the outgoing v1. Otherwise unchanged. The EQ is not manually configurable, but assuming the auto routine does a good job then this should be ok. JL subs are the best I have found for music reproduction.

A point of terminology - one is not "crossing over" to subs if you are not rolling off the bass to your main speakers. Many people will bring subs under the main speakers, and continue to run the mains full range. This approach helps fill in the last octave (since most "full range" speakers are not truly full range) and may provide some room mode cancellation for the lowest axial mode depending on sub placement (the sub will need to be in the other half of the room to the mains for this to work). A better way to do it is to roll off bass to main speakers to an array of subwoofers, distributed around the room in particular locations for room mode cancellation and speaker boundary interference fill.

Some thoughts about integrating a sub with a two channel set of speakers here (without rolling off bass to main speakers, as you should do!):http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/20...subwoofer-crossover-frequency-slope-and-html/
 

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