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Thread: The American Sound Turntable- Beyond's Minimalist!

  1. #11
    Senior Member ALF's Avatar
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    Hi David,

    I hope that you are doing well and the summer is treating you and your family nicely!

    Nice write up regarding your stellar collection of kit along with your willingness to share your experiences and expertise. I have enjoyed reading your posts and the nice write-up that Steve, aka "Amigo," shared with us a few weeks ago, sweet!

    Cheers!
    Alan

  2. #12
    Addicted to Best! PeterA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALF View Post
    Hi PeterA,

    That one, the German, he never built the turntable you are mentioning...it was a fantasy; however, it appears that he collected several $10s of thousands of hopeful deposits. Status- the fantasy, some friends, and the deposits disappeared.
    Interesting update. I had read something similar about an exotic pre/phono amp that he was marketing. If true about the turntable, it's a shame for the depositors. It seemed to have a lot of potential and the design reminds me of David's American Sound. The Axiom tonearm and protractors are real products and of high quality I understand.
    My system link on WBF: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showth...-Sublime-Sound
    Analog: SME 30/12, SME V-12, My Sonic Labs Signature Gold, AirTight Supreme, VDH Colibri Platinum, MINT LP protractor
    Electronics: Pass Labs XA160.5 amp, XP-20 preamp, XP-25 phono, Cables: Transparent REF XL MM2,
    Speakers: Magico Mini II, Essentials: Jim Smith RoomPlay, 3 Vibraplanes, Dedicated circuits

  3. #13
    Site Founder And Administrator Steve Williams's Avatar
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    I would almost bet that David has the only 2 in existence. It does have an uncanny resemblance to the AF3

    Perhaps the much anticipated AF Zero will be fashioned after the AS. Of all the tables David has in his museum the AS with the Neumann DST cartridge lit my ears up like none of the others
    Steve Williams
    aka oneobgyn
    There's ALWAYS another Steve Williams BUT there's only "oneobgyn"
    Dealer Lamm Electronics
    My System

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thanks David. That AS table sure looks serious. I love the very straight forward design with every element taken to the extreme with excellent execution. I had forgotten about the pump. Of course you had to turn that on to free the platter to spin.
    There is a video on the net showing a worker at the SME factory spinning the platter of an SME Model 30. It is not nearly as massive as you platter, but it goes on spinning long after the camera cuts away. Precision machining is a big part of it too, I would imagine.
    I like the idea of the fixed Kevlar belt. That makes a lot of sense for such a massive platter. A stretchy belt would not last long.

    There is a German designer who discussed developing a turntable similar to your AS. It was an air bearing of some type, a massive 150+ lbs platter. It was to use an idler to get the platter to speed and then disengage while a thread drive with slippage kept the platter running at proper speed. I think the theory is that it only brings it back to speed but then slips so it can's slow the platter down and therefore speed correction is extremely gradual and not jerky when the controller hunts for the correct speed. (Just my speculation)
    I can't remember the name or if he ever built the table. I think he was going to make six in total for his friends so that there would be some economy of scale for the machining. Wildly expensive as I recall. He is the designer of the Axiom tonearm and various other analog accessories. I think called Acoustical Systems in Germany.
    Yes, Dietrich D. Brakemeier made that awesome APOLYT turntable!
    He is the designer of AXION & Aiwon!

    " ... Dietrich D. Brakemeier is perhaps best known for having created the APOLYT turntable in the early ‘90s. Featuring a bi-radial air-bearing, a 40 kg platter of lead and aluminium topped with acrylic, and a full air-suspension; no more than 15 units of the APOLYT turntables were produced, each at a cost of 40,000 Deutsche Marks, ten-times the price of a fully optioned Linn LP12 at the time. The turntable was shown at the 2006 High End Show in Munich to critical acclaim and the world has not seen anything like it in the years since ... "
    http://www.audiofidelity.com.au/port...tical-systems/
    ARC 40 Anniv preamp, MC2 S1400 monoblocks, Magico S5 speaker, CAS with MSB Platinum IV Plus dac, MSB UMT Plus & Signature Transport Powerbase, Furman isolation transformer.

  5. #15
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthStar View Post
    ...And I love the tune playing in the background (exquisite piano solo) ♪
    Bob, Its Erik Satie's Gymnopedies.


    Quote Originally Posted by CKKeung View Post
    Thanks David for the great info & photos!

    I notice that the Air Force Three looks a bit like the AS turntable, although the latter is made of stainless steel, bigger/thicker and heavier.
    Hi CK, the form factor for all these turntables comes from the Micro RX-5000 of the 70's. I still think its the best and most flexible shape and there are quite a few look alike tables today that are just hiding the form in little fancier shape.

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  6. #16
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Thanks David. That AS table sure looks serious. I love the very straight forward design with every element taken to the extreme with excellent execution. I had forgotten about the pump. Of course you had to turn that on to free the platter to spin.

    There is a video on the net showing a worker at the SME factory spinning the platter of an SME Model 30. It is not nearly as massive as you platter, but it goes on spinning long after the camera cuts away. Precision machining is a big part of it too, I would imagine.

    I like the idea of the fixed Kevlar belt. That makes a lot of sense for such a massive platter. A stretchy belt would not last long.

    There is a German designer who discussed developing a turntable similar to your AS. It was an air bearing of some type, a massive 150+ lbs platter. It was to use an idler to get the platter to speed and then disengage while a thread drive with slippage kept the platter running at proper speed. I think the theory is that it only brings it back to speed but then slips so it can's slow the platter down and therefore speed correction is extremely gradual and not jerky when the controller hunts for the correct speed. (Just my speculation)

    I can't remember the name or if he ever built the table. I think he was going to make six in total for his friends so that there would be some economy of scale for the machining. Wildly expensive as I recall. He is the designer of the Axiom tonearm and various other analog accessories. I think called Acoustical Systems in Germany.

    A stretchy belt has other qualities, the tension is naturally higher than thread and solid belts. It depends on the tt design, platter weight, motor, etc., the belt is yet another factor in the final tt sound.

    I think as others noted below you're probably mentioning Brekmeier's Apolyt. I never heard one but I read a couple of articles on it, very different approach from the AS. The air bearing concept is the only idea common to both, but execution is very different. ALF has direct experience with him and his products. For me his designs are unnecessarily over complicated, the slippage idea if it was his is one of them. It simply doesn't work and one is negating the primary reason for having a heavy platter. You're going to hear any adjustment, maybe not directly but you will, there's always an artifact of some sort, reason why I don't have any DD tables. Just think of the additional mechanical and electronic parts needed to make such a system to work, and then fine tune it to perform as needed, why? There are simpler ways.


    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  7. #17
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcosta View Post
    David

    When were the AS tables made. Are the two you have exactly the same?
    Any more interesting details you could share that separate these tables from others physically. What would one of these cost back then and how did you find yours.

    Paul
    Paul,

    The two are identical. Whoever made them was very skilled and knew exactly what they were doing mechanically, but definitely a low volume product. Aside from the obvious higher mass the big difference between this and other tables is in its absolute minimalism and purity. Even the spindle is machined into the platter and doesn't have any moving parts. I was a designer, manufacturer in my past life and this is the kind of functional simplicity which we had to work the hardest to achieve. The AS has taken the concept to its limit and executed it perfectly, you'll know immediately when you see it. The designer achieved all his goals, including the function of the design, sonically its almost peerless. Steve's been generously and accurately describing it in the other threads. I have no idea what they cost back in the day, the AS was very obscure, this is the work of an individual, not a company.

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  8. #18
    Site Founder And Administrator Steve Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Paul,

    The two are identical. Whoever made them was very skilled and knew exactly what they were doing mechanically, but definitely a low volume product. Aside from the obvious higher mass the big difference between this and other tables is in its absolute minimalism and purity. Even the spindle is machined into the platter and doesn't have any moving parts. I was a designer, manufacturer in my past life and this is the kind of functional simplicity which we had to work the hardest to achieve. The AS has taken the concept to its limit and executed it perfectly, you'll know immediately when you see it. The designer achieved all his goals, including the function of the design, sonically its almost peerless. Steve's been generously and accurately describing it in the other threads. I have no idea what they cost back in the day, the AS was very obscure, this is the work of an individual, not a company.

    david
    Minimalism to say the least. Beautiful to behold and as good to listen to
    Steve Williams
    aka oneobgyn
    There's ALWAYS another Steve Williams BUT there's only "oneobgyn"
    Dealer Lamm Electronics
    My System

  9. #19
    [Industry Expert] ddk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALF View Post
    Hi David,

    I hope that you are doing well and the summer is treating you and your family nicely!

    Nice write up regarding your stellar collection of kit along with your willingness to share your experiences and expertise. I have enjoyed reading your posts and the nice write-up that Steve, aka "Amigo," shared with us a few weeks ago, sweet!

    Cheers!
    Alan
    Hi Alan,

    This is the high desert, summer's are relatively mild and often breezy. Glad you enjoyed the posts .

    david
    Audio Industry Affiliate:Lamm, Ortofon, ZYX, Keith Monks, Audio Desk, Jensen Transformers, Pheonix Engineering.
    Specialty & Unique Offerings: Vintage horn speakers, Vintage and Modern Turntables, Analog Accessories.

    System 1: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 1
    System 2: Horns+Tubes+Vinyl and digital too- Listening Room 2- Near field setup

  10. #20
    Site Founder And Administrator Steve Williams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddk View Post
    Hi Alan,

    This is the high desert, summer's are relatively mild and often breezy. Glad you enjoyed the posts .

    david
    not when I was there. I was short of breath and the temp was 95-104
    Steve Williams
    aka oneobgyn
    There's ALWAYS another Steve Williams BUT there's only "oneobgyn"
    Dealer Lamm Electronics
    My System

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