Vinyl vs. Digital Volume Compression

To what extent does vinyl have more dynamic range than digital?

  • Vinyl ALWAYS has more dynamic range than digital.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Vinyl NEVER has more dynamic range than digital.

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • Only the "mastered for vinyl" version of an album will have more dynamic range than digital.

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • approximately 10% of vinyl releases have more dynamic range than their digital counterpart

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • approximately 25% of vinyl releases have more dynamic range than their digital counterpart

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • approximately 35% of vinyl releases have more dynamic range than their digital counterpart

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • approximately 45% of vinyl releases have more dynamic range than their digital counterpart

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • approximately 55% of vinyl releases have more dynamic range than their digital counterpart

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • approximately 65% of vinyl releases have more dynamic range than their digital counterpart

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • approximately 75% or more of vinyl releases have more dynamic range than their digital counterpart

    Votes: 3 50.0%

  • Total voters
    6

dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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So, I've become more and more interested in setting up a vinyl rig. I have been experimenting a little lately and I have been having fun with it. On paper, there should be zero reason I would want to spend additional money on a technically inferior source. However, I think there are a few advantages vinyl sources can offer over digital sources. One of those supposed advantages is that the so called "loudness war" only works on a digital source. IOW, extreme volume compression (clipping) is much more commonly associated with digital media than it is with vinyl media. The explanations I've read on this is that the RIAA curve used for mastering vinyl prohibits the use of excess volume compression. The claim is that excess dynamic range compression would cause the needle to skip off of the record.

Has anyone compared the volume compression of digital and vinyl album counterparts to know whether this claimed advantage is real or just another audiophile myth that vinyl heads tell themselves? I really don't know. So, please participate in this poll if you have an opinion on the matter.


Here's an example showing the digital vs. vinyl volume compression difference on a Red Hot Chili Pepper's album.
[video]https://youtu.be/EScPiP2QjXM[/video]
 
Last edited:

CGabriel

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Oct 31, 2013
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So, I've become more and more interested in setting up a vinyl rig. I have been experimenting a little lately and I have been having fun with it. On paper, there should be zero reason I would want to spend additional money on a technically inferior source. However, I think there are a few advantages vinyl sources can offer over digital sources. One of those supposed advantages is that the so called "loudness war" only works on a digital source. IOW, extreme volume compression (clipping) is much more commonly associated with digital media than it is with vinyl media. The explanations I've read on this is that the RIAA curve used for mastering vinyl prohibits the use of excess volume compression. The claim is that excess dynamic range compression would cause the needle to skip off of the record.

Has anyone compared the volume compression of digital and vinyl album counterparts to know whether this claimed advantage is real or just another audiophile myth that vinyl heads tell themselves? I really don't know. So, please participate in this poll if you have an opinion on the matter.


Here's an example showing the digital vs. vinyl volume compression difference on a Red Hot Chili Pepper's album.
[video]https://youtu.be/EScPiP2QjXM[/video]

Yes, at the Vegas CES Show Philip O'Hanlon brought two releases of the same album. One was a CD and the other a record. He played both for anyone that wanted to listen. The CD was dramatically and obviously inferior in dynamic range. I am not sure but I think it was one of Rick Rubin's releases. Apparently Apple requires dynamic compression for iTunes release. I am not sure why this ends up on the CD but apparently it does. Since the record requires different processing (RIAA) it is not compressed.

I will ask Philip to chime in.
 

Bobvin

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"florence and the machine" LP also crap as they cut the CD bits to vinyl. The loudness war sadly not ended by going to vinyl. Goddam record industry execs.
 
Last edited:

dallasjustice

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"florence and the machine" LP also crap as they cut the CD bits to vinyl. The loudness war sadly not ended by going to vinyl. Goddam record industry execs.

This makes sense to me. But do you have any idea what percentage of vinyl releases are exactly the same as their digital counterpart notwithstanding RIAA?
 

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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This makes sense to me. But do you have any idea what percentage of vinyl releases are exactly the same as their digital counterpart notwithstanding RIAA?

That's the $64,000 question! I don't think anyone has a clue.
 

dallasjustice

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Is there any database or reliable resource which could help one decide which LPs to avoid? There is something like this already for digital. The DR database can be helpful to weed out some garbage before the money is spent.

http://dr.loudness-war.info

I know DR values can't really be compared vinyl vs digital, but it should be close enough to know whether it's the same.

That's the $64,000 question! I don't think anyone has a clue.
 

Johnny Vinyl

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Is there any database or reliable resource which could help one decide which LPs to avoid? There is something like this already for digital. The DR database can be helpful in weeding out some garbage before the money is spent.

http://dr.loudness-war.info

I'm not aware of a vinyl database for that purpose. I spend a lot of time over at the Steve Hoffman Music Forum and those guys have been invaluable to me with regards to pinning down which vinyl copies are the favored ones. It's how I found the holy grail of all vinyl pressings of PF's DSOTM.
 

NorthStar

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Feb 8, 2011
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Is there any database or reliable resource which could help one decide which LPs to avoid? There is something like this already for digital. The DR database can be helpful to weed out some garbage before the money is spent.

http://dr.loudness-war.info

I know DR values can't really be compared vinyl vs digital, but it should be close enough to know whether it's the same.

Michael, what genre of music are you mostly listening to?
Then from there explore the best record labels of music recorded by the best studio music recording/mixing engineers working inside the best music studio recordings in the world. ...And using the best recording tools and techniques, and also the live venues where they do some of them music recordings.

For second-hand music; JRiver, FM radio, HD radio, streaming music, etc. ...Pop, Rock&Roll, Electronic, Ambiance, Alternative, Funk, ...

For serious software (LPs, CDs, SACDs) ... only the best music record labels, stick to them ... there is plenty of it.
But there is much much more bad music recordings ... just don't buy from all those inferior music record labels ... the best musicians tend to frequent the best quality recording studios with the best engineers working inside them studios; ECM, Channel Classics, Reference Recordings, APO, AudioQuest, Chesky, JVC XRCD, ...those kind of solid core music record labels. Remain selective of them and your music experience can only evolve hundred folds. ...The rest is cheap whiskey and a waste of time when you can experience the best somewhere else.

Also, I found over the years that not only the best music record labels is the best way to accentuate your music experience on the highest level, but also the genre of music you are listening to...some type of music expands your soul, others they do nothing to it...only to your ears as a fake form that is 100% opposite to the true art form...the emotional soul.

Anyway, that is one direction, my own suggestion...and based on solid grounds/foundations...long experience. ...You can also ask Mike Lavigne, ...as long that he doesn't stick with 'The Doors'. ;) ...Riders on the Storm, This is the End, ...

Today is going to be a beautiful day, very hot too, enjoy, in the shade. :b

P.S. I did not vote; it depends of too many factors. But I believe that both can have good dynamic range; the best music recordings; analog and digital.
...Not as live music though. ...Acoustic and electric.
 
Last edited:

ddk

Well-Known Member
May 18, 2013
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Hi Michael,

The poll is missing an important point, you're concentrating on media where the difference is in the formats, analog vs digital. For most including myself who have both formats we'll buy the silver disc or download the file before buying the digital vinyl. The difference in SQ will be in the quality of each of format's front end but the nature of the recording won't change. Digital is DIGITAL no matter the medium, its not analog!

david
 

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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Michael, what genre of music are you mostly listening to?
Then from there explore the best record labels of music recorded by the best studio music recording/mixing engineers working inside the best music studio recordings in the world. ...And using the best recording tools and techniques, and also the live venues where they do some of them music recordings.

For second-hand music; JRiver, FM radio, HD radio, streaming music, etc. ...Pop, Rock&Roll, Electronic, Ambiance, Alternative, Funk, ...

For serious software (LPs, CDs, SACDs) ... only the best music record labels, stick to them ... there is plenty of it.
But there is much much more bad music recordings ... just don't buy from all those inferior music record labels ... the best musicians tend to frequent the best quality recording
studios with the best engineers working inside them studios; ECM, Channel Classics, Reference Recordings, APO, AudioQuest, Chesky, JVC XRCD, ...those kind of solid core music record labels. Remain selective of them and your music experience can only evolve hundred folds. ...The rest is cheap whiskey and a waste of time when you can experience the best somewhere else.

Also, I found over the years that not only the best music record labels is the best way to accentuate your music experience on the highest level, but also the genre of music you are listening to...some type of music expands your soul, others they do nothing to it...only to your ears as a fake form that is 100% opposite to the true art form...the emotional soul.

Anyway, that is one direction, my own suggestion...and based on solid grounds/foundations...long experience. ...You can also ask Mike Lavigne, ...as long that he doesn't stick with 'The Doors'. ;) ...Riders on the Storm, This is the End, ...

Today is going to be a beautiful day, very hot too, enjoy, in the shade. :b

P.S. I did not vote; it depends of too many factors. But I believe that both can have good dynamic range; the best music recordings; analog and digital.
...Not as live music though. ...Acoustic and electric.

There are many labels over and above the ones you mention, which IMO put out severely restricted genres of music, mostly geared towards classical, jazz, and new age. That's fine if that's all you're into, but its misleading at best to say one should stick to only those and a few others perhaps not mentioned. For instance, you'd be hard-pressed to find better examples of great pressings than early Deccas, Deutsche Grammophon , RCA Shaded Dogs or Columbia 6-Eyes. The list goes on. Additionally, standard labels such as Warner (including Elektra, Reprise, Atlantic), Island, Vertigo, etc. have produced outstanding records of the highest production, mastering quality.

There certainly are some labels to avoid like "4 Men With Beards" and an Italian reissue label called "Doxy".
 

NorthStar

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John, I am not trying to mislead, I only shared some. ...I don't know them all...the quality music record labels...I simply enumerated some I like.
And it's my opinion that some music genres are more rewarding inside than others. ...In the long run...on how a man, a woman develop an overall attitude with their surrounding world.

That's all; none misleading here my friend...only Bob's opinion...for what it's worth.

Some of those music record labels you just mentioned above; they too are generally excellent...Deutsche G, RCA Red Seal, Mercury Living Presence, RCA Living Stereo, Nonesuch, ...

I would never mislead people, never.

Oh, I also love Choral music, Operas (high intensity level from singers of the Opera; nothing can approach that), Classic Chamber music (acoustic).
 

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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John, I am not trying to mislead, I only shared some. ...I don't know them all...the quality music record labels...I simply enumerated some I like.
And it's my opinion that some music genres are more rewarding inside than others. ...In the long run...on how a man, a woman develop an overall attitude with their surrounding world.

That's all; none misleading here my friend...only Bob's opinion...for what it's worth.

Some of those music record labels you just mentioned above; they too are generally excellent...Deutsche G, RCA Red Seal, Mercury Living Presence, RCA Living Stereo, Nonesuch, ...

I would never mislead people, never.
I know you would never personally mislead people Bob. I was only commenting on what I felt was somewhat of a restricted opinion. No harm done my friend!:)
 

slowGEEZR

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Sep 20, 2010
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Vinyl seems to have at least as much dynamic range as the digital I've played. My software seems to indicate that the dynamic range of most of my digital music is very small, typically between a two (!) and fourteen decibel range. However, if the mastering is poor for analog, it too will have lousy dynamic range. Some of my newer vinyl releases that probably were recorded and mastered digitally have that compression, I'm sure.
 

garylkoh

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Sep 6, 2010
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Stadium Arcadium is one of my most-demo'ed rock albums. One day, someone in the recording industry came in, said "why are you demo'ing with that horribly compressed crap?" and then sat down to listen to the whole side. He said that he had never heard Red Hot Chilli Peppers being so expressive before. He hadn't even known that you could still get "those big black discs".

It boils down to $$$. Put yourself in the shoes of the recording industry exec who is measured on profit and his bonus is dependent on making money. He sends an album to get mastered, and receives a copy on CD-ROM. Sticks it into his Bose CD player on his desk, throws the CD into the trash. Sends off a one word email. LOUDER!

A month later he gets the LP test pressing of that original mastering (before the despondent mastering engineer made it louder) and he doesn't have a turntable in his office to play it. What does he do? If he wants it re-mastered, he will have to pay for another lacquer, another 20 test pressings, and wait another few months. Of course it gets approved.
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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Telarc was a popular digital to vinyl label back in the day. On the 1812 record, most turntables could not track the canon shots. I have the record and I do track it. That said, you can tell it is digital by the compressed sound stage and lack of resolution compared to analog mastered counterparts.
 

dallasjustice

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Tranks Gary! I listen to a wide variety of music. With regard to the loudness war, I'm more interested to know how many others similar to "Stadium Arcadium" vinyl pressings are out there. Is this just the rare exception for modern pop music or are there many specially mastered vinyl pressings out there with superior DR?

Stadium Arcadium is one of my most-demo'ed rock albums. One day, someone in the recording industry came in, said "why are you demo'ing with that horribly compressed crap?" and then sat down to listen to the whole side. He said that he had never heard Red Hot Chilli Peppers being so expressive before. He hadn't even known that you could still get "those big black discs".

It boils down to $$$. Put yourself in the shoes of the recording industry exec who is measured on profit and his bonus is dependent on making money. He sends an album to get mastered, and receives a copy on CD-ROM. Sticks it into his Bose CD player on his desk, throws the CD into the trash. Sends off a one word email. LOUDER!

A month later he gets the LP test pressing of that original mastering (before the despondent mastering engineer made it louder) and he doesn't have a turntable in his office to play it. What does he do? If he wants it re-mastered, he will have to pay for another lacquer, another 20 test pressings, and wait another few months. Of course it gets approved.
 

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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A good example of vinyl gone horribly wrong is the fully digital recording of Stevie Wonder - In Square Circle. Get ready for a vinyl ear-bleed with this monstrosity. Such a shame as Part-Time Lover and Overjoyed are such wonderful songs.
 

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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Tranks Gary! I listen to a wide variety of music. With regard to the loudness war, I'm more interested to know how many others similar to "Stadium Arcadium" vinyl pressings are out there. Is this just the rare exception for modern pop music or are there many specially mastered vinyl pressings out there with superior DR?

That's another $64,000 question. Labels don't provide source data or mastering data on the majority of releases, whether they be vinyl or CD.
 

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