One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond

microstrip · Jul 20, 2015

FrantzM said:
(...)
So In ddk room and at their current positions Steve's and ddk found the American Sound TT to sound the best ..That doesn't make it the absolute best .. There ain't such a thing ...

Much more than that IMHO. They explained why they felt it in a informative, colorful and enjoyable thread, that most WBF members appreciated a lot. It created the knowledge and positive bias (nice sounding expression for enthusiasm

) needed for a better appreciation of such systems.

Also, considering their previous experience with great systems and their openly known preferences, expressed along many years in many hundreds of posts, we know how to valuate the information and opinions they supply us. A great thread IMHO.

BTW, where is your thread on turntable comparison? I could not find it.

andromedaaudio · Jul 20, 2015

Well i studied mechanics and have been working in this field for many years now , thats why i asked for papers , as from papers and tests you learn not very much from opinions , and i come to another conclusion then you and probably a lot of well known manufacturers of air bearings whether used in turntables or other appliances agree .
Whether turntablemanufacturers prefer this or the other is a completely different thing,as listening tests are open to discussion and we all agree on that

cannata said:
I apologies for the relentlessly (feel free to ignore and enjoy the thread as is), but andromedaaudio asked so I am replying:

When you go to school and study the principles of physics and mechanical engineering you are expected to be able to make proper hypothesis on known phenomenon. One does not have to jump from building to know it will hurt once he hit the ground (or do you need to see tests or read papers on that as well). So, if you understand that any bearing has an axial and a tilt mode, and that the higher these modes are the more accurate the bearing will be and that in an air bearing the way to raise these modes is to increase the pressure in the bearing and therefore stiffen it, and why as such, it will transfer better high freq. vibration to the shaft, as they ride on these modes and basically have no damping to factor. If you understand all that you will understand why an air bearing is not a ideal bearing for a turntable. BTW, the Continuum table guys understood it well, from their site : " Due to the superior damping over comparable air bearing systems, this principle is preferred in ultra-precision tooling machines used to manufacture aerospace components and optical systems..."

cannata · Jul 21, 2015

andromedaaudio said:
Well i studied mechanics and have been working in this field for many years now , thats why i asked for papers , as from papers and tests you learn not very much from opinions , and i come to another conclusion then you and probably a lot of well known manufacturers of air bearings whether used in turntables or other appliances agree .
Whether turntablemanufacturers prefer this or the other is a completely different thing,as listening tests are open to discussion and we all agree on that

Which part of my explanation was an opinion and not a fact in your views?
Not to mention that the air bearing table in question here did not sound as good as the other bearing types TT David have, I wonder why…

andromedaaudio · Jul 21, 2015

Post 133, where i quoted what you said.

cannata · Jul 21, 2015

andromedaaudio said:
Post 133, where i quoted what you said.

I thought you read post #137, where I bothered to explain to you how I arrived at my conclusion (Would that help if I make a "paper" out of it?) Which facts are you contradicting, the ones that talked about axial and a tilt modes an their relationship to stiffness and vibrations (noise)? Or is it the claim by the designer of, according to many, the best TT ever made? Or perhaps it is David and Steve listening tests?

LarsS · Jul 21, 2015

@Steve,

Thanks for an inspiring writeup of your visit to ddk and a special thanks for the music recommendation Rodrigo y Gabriela "Live in Japan" now playing on my humble audio setup.

If you're into female jazz singers this is the one to listen to - Youn Sun Nah a South Korean jazz singer here covering Tom Waits "Jockey full of Bourbon" - - > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgWefgUxH2Y

Will most likely stay out of the bearing discussion considering I have a Sony PS-8750 DD TT .... ;-)

/Lars

Steve Williams · Jul 21, 2015

LarsS said:
@Steve,

Thanks for an inspiring writeup of your visit to ddk and a special thanks for the music recommendation Rodrigo y Gabriela "Live in Japan" now playing on my humble audio setup.

If you're into female jazz singers this is the one to listen to - Youn Sun Nah a South Korean jazz singer here covering Tom Waits "Jockey full of Bourbon" - - > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgWefgUxH2Y

Will most likely stay out of the bearing discussion considering I have a Sony PS-8750 DD TT .... ;-)

/Lars

Hi Lars and thank you

My visit to David was truly a memorable experience for me as I have never heard vintage theater horn speakers let alone these amazing vintage turntables. When we played Rodrigo y Gabriela that entire album was for the two of us the highlight of the trip.

Thanks also for the recommendation

marty · Jul 21, 2015

David,
Have you tried this modern, modified version of the EMT cartridge? I'd be curious as to your thoughts.
http://www.brinkmann-audio.com/main.php?prod=emtti&lang=en
Marty

ddk · Jul 21, 2015

marty said:
David,
Have you tried this modern, modified version of the EMT cartridge? I'd be curious as to your thoughts.
http://www.brinkmann-audio.com/main.php?prod=emtti&lang=en
Marty

Not this particular model Marty but according to some press releases (haven't personally verified it) the Brinkmann and a few other rebadged models that they make for Roksan and others are all based on the original TSD 15 cartridge with minor changes. High musicality and coherence are the hallmarks of EMT sound, I'm sure that this cartridge will also have those qualities in abundance too.

david

Halcro · Jul 31, 2015

What an inspiring Thread....
Thanks to Steve for initiating it and a particular thank you to David for sharing his system and his thoughts:b
I've been in high-end audio for nearly 40 years and have come to the realisation that there is a tiny minority of audiophiles which has the means and the acumen to travel, read, consult and track-down the very best that has ever been created in this field.
Most of this tiny minority are situated in Germany and Japan/Asia and thus have limited abilities to share their experiences in English....but a common theme of this remarkable group is the in-house auditioning and appreciation of turntables like the Micro Seiki SX/RX 5000/8000, Thorens Reference, EMT 927/R80 and Continuum, horn speakers (especially Western Electric), low-wattage SET valve amplifiers, the use of SUTs over active phono stages and vintage arms and cartridges.
It is obvious that this group has had direct experience with the latest and greatest current-production turntables, amps, speakers, arms and cartridges and have almost unanimously reached agreement on the relative merits and positioning of modern technology.

I personally find the subjective views of this select group of audiophiles to be more relevant, incisive and instructive than even those of the most prominent of reviewers like Fremer or Valin who have simply not had the opportunity to compare this vintage esoterica in their own systems.
So thank you again David for sharing your incredible journey and conclusions with those of us in the English speaking world.

Nevillekapadia · Jul 31, 2015

What a wonderful thread and thank you for sharing Steve.

David clearly you know what you want in sound quality and have got your answers in spades. And that what's really matters.

Steve, you got the juices flowing through my veins and my mind clicking again for future visits!

If only we were closer, but I think thats not going to hold us folks who like to travel and meet other audiophiles back.

Making new friends along the way, is the best part of this hobby.

ddk · Jul 31, 2015

Halcro said:
What an inspiring Thread....
Thanks to Steve for initiating it and a particular thank you to David for sharing his system and his thoughts:b
I've been in high-end audio for nearly 40 years and have come to the realisation that there is a tiny minority of audiophiles which has the means and the acumen to travel, read, consult and track-down the very best that has ever been created in this field.
Most of this tiny minority are situated in Germany and Japan/Asia and thus have limited abilities to share their experiences in English....but a common theme of this remarkable group is the in-house auditioning and appreciation of turntables like the Micro Seiki SX/RX 5000/8000, Thorens Reference, EMT 927/R80 and Continuum, horn speakers (especially Western Electric), low-wattage SET valve amplifiers, the use of SUTs over active phono stages and vintage arms and cartridges.
It is obvious that this group has had direct experience with the latest and greatest current-production turntables, amps, speakers, arms and cartridges and have almost unanimously reached agreement on the relative merits and positioning of modern technology.

I personally find the subjective views of this select group of audiophiles to be more relevant, incisive and instructive than even those of the most prominent of reviewers like Fremer or Valin who have simply not had the opportunity to compare this vintage esoterica in their own systems.
So thank you again David for sharing your incredible journey and conclusions with those of us in the English speaking world.

Hi Halcro,

You're correct while there's information out there in Asia (really in Japan other Asian countries are just starting to understand) with these kinds of systems very little is known in most of the Western world. The audio publications here have been extremely poor judges and teachers. I'm happy to know you enjoyed the read and great to hear from you, thanks

!

david

PS We need constant awareness for ANALOG if we ever hope to see it thrive again, you have your own experiences too don't be shy to share.

Steve Williams · Jul 31, 2015

ddk said:
Hi Halcro,

You're correct while there's information out there in Asia (really in Japan other Asian countries are just starting to understand) with these kinds of systems very little is known in most of the Western world. The audio publications here have been extremely poor judges and teachers. I'm happy to know you enjoyed the read and great to hear from you, thanks !

david

PS We need constant awareness for ANALOG if we ever hope to see it thrive again, you have your own experiences too don't be shy to share.

I second David's suggestions Halcro so feel free to jump in with your thoughts

ddk · Jul 31, 2015

Nevillekapadia said:
What a wonderful thread and thank you for sharing Steve.

David clearly you know what you want in sound quality and have got your answers in spades. And that what's really matters.

Steve, you got the juices flowing through my veins and my mind clicking again for future visits!

If only we were closer, but I think thats not going to hold us folks who like to travel and meet other audiophiles back.

Making new friends along the way, is the best part of this hobby.

The forums are a good place to get introduced but imo a great part of this hobby can be the meeting and sharing with others, otherwise like everything else it can become stale when you're a vacuum.

david

Halcro · Aug 1, 2015

Steve Williams said:
I second David's suggestions Halcro so feel free to jump in with your thoughts

Thanks for the invitation guys....

Firstly let me say that the ability to have a dedicated listening room is the ultimate luxury in the 'High-End' stakes.
The limitations one faces without this facility forces choices which are not ideal nor expansive.
I simply haven't been able to audition different speaker systems in my 'listening room' (aka Living Room) like large planars or horns...nor is it possible to accommodate a collection of large turntables.
You are very lucky David and it is pleasing to see that you have taken maximum advantage of your good fortune..

I understand the conscious decision to unify your choice of tonearms because of the many turntables and cartridges you possess. This allows you to confidently understand the character of each and every turntable and cartridge and I applaud this.
Having said that, I am a little surprised by your choice of tonearm although I have not personally heard the SME. I do own the SAEC WE-8000S/T which is also a 12" double knife edge design and I love it.

It performs wonderfully with a vast selection of my MM cartridges.
Your comments on the Fidelity Research FR-66s

are at odds with my experiences and those of most others in your elite group? I'm not sure if the FR-66s originally came with silver wiring? I've owned three FR-64s tonearms and some of these did have original silver wiring like the one I currently own. Perhaps you were unlucky with a faulty FR-66s?
I'm also a little surprised that your inventory of vintage LOMCs does not appear to include any of the Fidelity Research FR-7 range?

Are they not to your tastes?
And finally...can you please describe what you find different (and preferable) in the sound of vintage LOMC cartridges to those currently in production?

Steve Williams · Aug 1, 2015

I can't speak for David but I do know that he is strongly opposed to anything which is silver wired (or even copper/silver wired). I asked David about the choice of the 3012 throughout and his comment to me were that he uses it because for him it is the only arm that sounds "natural" and the set up was always very quick when mounting another cartridge

ALF · Aug 1, 2015

Well Halcro, you tried

!

Steve Williams · Aug 1, 2015

ALF said:
Well Halcro, you tried !

But then again Alan I am not speaking for David. thanks

this is nothing more than two different opinions on arms. Does it make one more correct than the other? Probably not. One's choice of flavors

Lets not try to make a mountain out of a mole here Alan as you so often do

ALF · Aug 1, 2015

Hi Steve,

All's well here, I hope the same for you!

...mostly, climbing hills, staying away from mountains...

Cheers!
Alan

Steve Williams · Aug 1, 2015

I try to move mountains Alan

.

You'll love your visit to Utah. Be prepared for something truly extraordinary

One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond

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