One Amigo Visits Utah To Hear 5 Reference Turntables-My Step Beyond

ddk · Jul 20, 2015

cannata said:
So what would an air bearing be if not a mass floating on air...?

There's no bearing unit on Micros and AF-1, just a center spindle that you lock the platter down to. The cushion of floats the platter directly, there's no bearing lifting it as there is in the Continuum tables,

http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/caliburnbearing.html

david

cannata · Jul 20, 2015

ddk said:
There's no bearing unit on Micros and AF-1, just a center spindle that you lock the platter down to. The cushion of floats the platter directly, there's no bearing lifting it as there is in the Continuum tables,

http://www.continuumaudiolabs.com/caliburnbearing.html

david

Perhaps I am missing something but from your link, it does not appear that the Continuum tables uses air bearing. In fact they clearly state that their oiled based hydrostatic bearing has a “superior damping over comparable air bearing systems”. Precisely the reason air bearings are not an ideal bearing for a table/arm.

ddk · Jul 20, 2015

cannata said:
Perhaps I am missing something but from your link, it does not appear that the Continuum tables uses air bearing. In fact they clearly state that their oiled based hydrostatic bearing has a “superior damping over comparable air bearing systems”. Precisely the reason air bearings are not an ideal bearing for a table/arm.

Of course you're right cannata, for some reason, because of their vacuum hold down it was stuck in my head that they use air bearing but realized that they didn't when I went to their site. It was late and I couldn't find pictures of an air bearing tt but their site showed a bearing so I linked it because visually oil and air bearings aren't that different. There isn't a bearing in the AF-1 and the Micro air models, here are pictures of actual air bearings.

david

cannata · Jul 20, 2015

ddk said:
Of course you're right cannata, for some reason, because of their vacuum hold down it was stuck in my head that they use air bearing but realized that they didn't when I went to their site. It was late and I couldn't find pictures of an air bearing tt but their site showed a bearing so I linked it because visually oil and air bearings aren't that different. There isn't a bearing in the AF-1 and the Micro air models, here are pictures of actual air bearings.

david

David,

I think that you may have a wrong notion to what bearing is. It is quite simple to understated, basically “an apparatus that constrains relative motion to only the desired motion, and reduces friction between moving parts”. There are many type of apparatuses that will qualify for that function. They are all called bearings, and whatever is used to reduce its friction, is the description of what kind of bearing it is. Your tables platters have to have a shaft (spindle or a platter) and a sleeve to rotate in (the sleeve can be as big as you platter dim). The media used to reduce friction between this 2 parts layout (i.e. bearing) is air. Therefore, it is called air bearing (BTW, you may want to read the AFO description on their web site, were they explain the air bearing concept they use and even call it by its name – air bearing).

ddk · Jul 20, 2015

cannata said:
David,

I think that you may have a wrong notion to what bearing is. It is quite simple to understated, basically “an apparatus that constrains relative motion to only the desired motion, and reduces friction between moving parts”. There are many type of apparatuses that will qualify for that function. They are all called bearings, and whatever is used to reduce its friction, is the description of what kind of bearing it is. Your tables platters have to have a shaft (spindle or a platter) and a sleeve to rotate in (the sleeve can be as big as you platter dim). The media used to reduce friction between this 2 parts layout (i.e. bearing) is air. Therefore, it is called air bearing (BTW, you may want to read the AFO description on their web site, were they explain the air bearing concept they use and even call it by its name – air bearing).

There's a distinction between a sealed air bearing with air and/or air spindle and a pocket of levitating the platter; air bearing or air floating are semantics, really nothing to argue about. I use the term air floating to distinguish it from a sealed air bearing/spindle. I have no problem, call it anything you like.

david

cannata · Jul 20, 2015

ddk said:
There's a distinction between a sealed air bearing with air and/or air spindle and a pocket of levitating the platter; air bearing or air floating are semantics, really nothing to argue about. I use the term air floating to distinguish it from a sealed air bearing/spindle. I have no problem, call it anything you like.

david

I call it, for what it is, an air bearing turntable, and as such, it may not be as good as some of your other tables. Nothing to do with vintage or any other premise but good engineering.

andromedaaudio · Jul 20, 2015

According to Cannata they are inferior

, but according to established manufacturers they are top of the bill bearings used in the most demanding industry locations , friction less plus they have a gap filled with air between parts and we all know mechanical vibration doesnt travel well through air neither does it through oilfilms :
http://www.kracht.nl/index.php?l=_en&id=2&c=24

Air Bearings is the leading manufacturer of the recently advanced air bearing technology. We are committed to providing our customers with the most precise bearing system available spread over many existing and emerging markets around the world. Advanced technologies have led to major breakthroughs and have given way to new markets. These developments have increased the need for precision tools and equipment. We have combined our past experience with today's technologies and implemented military spec materials including aluminum, titanium, and graphite in producing our state of the art OAV Air Bearing products

OAV Air Bearings do not have mechanical contact between elements and benefit from an air-film averaging effect. Furthermore, due to an absence of mechanical contact, the OAV Air Bearing has virtually no friction to generate heat and cause wear.

ddk · Jul 20, 2015

cannata said:
I call it, for what it is, an air bearing turntable, and as such, it may not be as good as some of your other tables. Nothing to do with vintage or any other premise but good engineering.

No argument on any front cannata, call it what you think is right. The AF-1 is a fantastic turntable and probably the best out there today. I know the people behind it too, the engineering is first class and they built exactly what they intended, nothing about it is by chance. As compared to other tables, that's a different thing, if you look at my blog here you'll see that its not something I wanted to get into, I see these tables as unique and individual on their own rather than soldiers at war. On another level the differences are there and people hear them...

david

andromedaaudio · Jul 20, 2015

Maybe some manufacturer should try out these , Fusion magnetic bearings

:

http://www.kracht.nl/index.php?l=_en&id=7&c=102

cannata · Jul 20, 2015

ddk said:
No argument on any front cannata, call it what you think is right. The AF-1 is a fantastic turntable and probably the best out there today. I know the people behind it too, the engineering is first class and they built exactly what they intended, nothing about it is by chance. As compared to other tables, that's a different thing, if you look at my blog here you'll see that its not something I wanted to get into, I see these tables as unique and individual on their own rather than soldiers at war. On another level the differences are there and people hear them...

david

I understand, and appreciate it, that is why it will be best to leave pseudoscience explanations out of your experiences

ddk · Jul 20, 2015

andromedaaudio said:
According to Cannata they are inferior , but according to established manufacturers they are top of the bill bearings used in the most demanding industry locations , friction less plus they have a gap filled with air between parts and we all know mechanical vibration doesnt travel well through air neither does it through oilfilms :
http://www.kracht.nl/index.php?l=_en&id=2&c=24

Air Bearings is the leading manufacturer of the recently advanced air bearing technology. We are committed to providing our customers with the most precise bearing system available spread over many existing and emerging markets around the world. Advanced technologies have led to major breakthroughs and have given way to new markets. These developments have increased the need for precision tools and equipment. We have combined our past experience with today's technologies and implemented military spec materials including aluminum, titanium, and graphite in producing our state of the art OAV Air Bearing products

OAV Air Bearings do not have mechanical contact between elements and benefit from an air-film averaging effect. Furthermore, due to an absence of mechanical contact, the OAV Air Bearing has virtually no friction to generate heat and cause wear.

The OAV bearings are interesting and simple.

david

cannata · Jul 20, 2015

andromedaaudio said:
According to Cannata they are inferior ,

I did not say that they are inferior, I simply said, and explained why, they are not ideal as a turntable/arm bearings. Is it too much to ask you read my comments before you reply to them

andromedaaudio · Jul 20, 2015

You said a while back this about airbearings i assume you can back this claim up with some technical papers /tests :

Basic mechanical engineering - air bearings are very stiff, therefore they will transmit high frq noise (vibration) right through them. Although cool in concept, they are really not ideal for turntable/arm bearing. That is why the other tables David have sounds better than the new AFO table (not because they are old).

FrantzM · Jul 20, 2015

Hi

I am interested enough as to begin listening more to horns. I have stated here on the WBF and elsewhere that one of my favorite speakers was the Acapella Sphaedron but I never saw myself as owning a horn-based system.
Having said this I have seen here the audiophile fantasy of "best" for everyone comes into the discussion. I have no doubt that ddk turntables are superb or that the American Sound Tt is great but it may not be the best for all... Another person may under the same conditions find the AF-One or another TT "better" ...

On this I have posted here and even opened a thread about this. Comparing turntables is not easy. IMO one should use the same Cartridge, Tonearm, cables

)) and phono pre at the exact same room position to make a serious evaluation. TT are sensitive to vibrations and I believe that the position of a TT in the room changes his sound.

So In ddk room and at their current positions Steve's and ddk found the American Sound TT to sound the best ..That doesn't make it the absolute best .. There ain't such a thing ...

Steve Williams · Jul 20, 2015

Never said it was the absolute best Frantz.What I did say that the AF1 was compared to the AS both having the same arms and cartridges and using everything else the same.Like David, I love the AF1 but on that day with all things being equal other than one table being perhaps 6 feet away from the other and yes I thought the AS was better but no where Frantz did I or David proclaim this to be the "absolute best"

FrantzM · Jul 20, 2015

Steve Williams said:
Never said it was the absolute best Frantz.What I did say that the AF1 was compared to the AS both having the same arms and cartridges and using everything else the same.Like David, I love the AF1 but on that day with all things being equal other than one table being perhaps 6 feet away from the other and yes I thought the AS was better but no where Frantz did I or David proclaim this to be the "absolute best"

Nor did I imply such. I am simply stating that many posts have drifted toward that.

6 feet can the difference a null and a peak in a room, as a matter of fact, a few inches can be that difference. Not saying the American Sound is not truly superior to the AF just saying that IMO a valid comparison of different TTs must be conducted at the same position. All this IMHO , YMMV , etc...

cannata · Jul 20, 2015

andromedaaudio said:
You said a while back this about airbearings i assume you can back this claim up with some technical papers /tests :

I apologies for the relentlessly (feel free to ignore and enjoy the thread as is), but andromedaaudio asked so I am replying:

When you go to school and study the principles of physics and mechanical engineering you are expected to be able to make proper hypothesis on known phenomenon. One does not have to jump from building to know it will hurt once he hit the ground (or do you need to see tests or read papers on that as well). So, if you understand that any bearing has an axial and a tilt mode, and that the higher these modes are the more accurate the bearing will be and that in an air bearing the way to raise these modes is to increase the pressure in the bearing and therefore stiffen it, and why as such, it will transfer better high freq. vibration to the shaft, as they ride on these modes and basically have no damping to factor. If you understand all that you will understand why an air bearing is not a ideal bearing for a turntable. BTW, the Continuum table guys understood it well, from their site : " Due to the superior damping over comparable air bearing systems, this principle is preferred in ultra-precision tooling machines used to manufacture aerospace components and optical systems..."

ddk · Jul 20, 2015

FrantzM said:
Nor did I imply such. I am simply stating that many posts have drifted toward that.

6 feet can the difference a null and a peak in a room, as a matter of fact, a few inches can be that difference. Not saying the American Sound is not truly superior to the AF just saying that IMO a valid comparison of different TTs must be conducted at the same position. All this IMHO , YMMV , etc...

I think you're watching too much Star Trek Frantz, there's no singularity or tachyon field dividing my room into seperate universes or time warps, but if it's that important to you, you're welcome to carry it over. It's only a few feet and 550lbs

! Neither Steve nor I have a dog or a cat in this race, it is what is, we had a great time. There's nothing else that matters.

david

Steve Williams · Jul 20, 2015

ddk said:
I think you're watching too much Star Trek Frantz, there's no singularity or tachyon field dividing my room into seperate universes or time warps, but if it's that important you, you're welcome to carry it over. It's only a few feet and 550lbs!

david

I'd rather move the AF1 than the AS

Frantz, each demo that David gives is quite audibly different from each of its predecessors but for me the biggest difference was the AF1 and AS. I loved them both and could easily live with either yet the AS was the better of the two.

ddk · Jul 20, 2015

Steve Williams said:
I'd rather move the AF1 than the AS

We should take Tricorder readings next!
david

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