Active Speakers

LenWhite · Jul 9, 2015

I'm considering adding a JL Audio F112 and JL Audio CR-1 crossover to augment the low end of my audio system. Some very astute audio people believe very few current consumer audio speakers can produce visceral bass without the proper integration of a subwoofer. I also read this very interesting article http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...payor-laurence-dickie-and-richard-vandersteen where several prominent speaker designers believe only active speakers can produce really great sound.

I may have to begin looking at some active speakers as another alternative.

LL21 · Jul 9, 2015

Great article which i have also not only read, but also posted somewhere in this great Forum...great reading. I think in some cases, they are also talking about both active crossovers as well as active bass. I also have read in Gryphon interview somewhere where Flemming Rasmussen, who designs the legendary Gryphon amps, that an amp designed specifically for a speaker is always going to have serious advantages. And of course, his flagship 4-tower Pendragon bass towers are self-powered by Gryphon amps. Genesis also have their own amps for a number of their bass drivers.

In my case, i have found great satisfaction in augmenting the deep sub-40hz bass in our room with a Velodyne DD18 that was setup with professional assistance. Good luck. Look forward to hearing more about your subterranean adventures...enjoy!

Holli82 · Jul 9, 2015

Von Schweikert has several active speaker models which sound great.

microstrip · Jul 9, 2015

LenWhite said:
I'm considering adding a JL Audio F112 and JL Audio CR-1 crossover to augment the low end of my audio system.(...)

Jeff Fritz recent words on a similar subject (Rockport Avior with subs versus Cignus)

Suffice to say that both of these speakers ( Cygnus ($62,500/pr.) and Magico's new S7 ($58,000/pr.)) would be on my shortlist if I were spending that kind of dough. If my budget permitted, I would most certainly move up to the best speaker I could buy instead of going the sub route. There might be exceptions depending on my room, of course. But generally, I believe in getting the best speaker you can afford to anchor your system and then building around that. . . . Jeff Fritz
http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/feedback/575-new-rockports-and-magicos

Phelonious Ponk · Jul 9, 2015

LenWhite said:
I'm considering adding a JL Audio F112 and JL Audio CR-1 crossover to augment the low end of my audio system. Some very astute audio people believe very few current consumer audio speakers can produce visceral bass without the proper integration of a subwoofer. I also read this very interesting article http://www.soundstageultra.com/inde...payor-laurence-dickie-and-richard-vandersteen where several prominent speaker designers believe only active speakers can produce really great sound.

I may have to begin looking at some active speakers as another alternative.

Many prominent speaker designers understand this, but don't talk about it much because there is almost no market for it in the high-end.

Tim

Phelonious Ponk · Jul 9, 2015

LL21 said:
Great article which i have also not only read, but also posted somewhere in this great Forum...great reading. I think in some cases, they are also talking about both active crossovers as well as active bass. I also have read in Gryphon interview somewhere where Flemming Rasmussen, who designs the legendary Gryphon amps, that an amp designed specifically for a speaker is always going to have serious advantages. And of course, his flagship 4-tower Pendragon bass towers are self-powered by Gryphon amps. Genesis also have their own amps for a number of their bass drivers.

In my case, i have found great satisfaction in augmenting the deep sub-40hz bass in our room with a Velodyne DD18 that was setup with professional assistance. Good luck. Look forward to hearing more about your subterranean adventures...enjoy!

Of course. How could this not be true?

Tim

Phelonious Ponk · Jul 10, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Absolutely active is the way to go, but they have for the most part always been unpopular with dealers ,as there isn't the opportunity to upgrade.
Keith.

Of course. But that unpopularity with dealers would be easily overcome if the demand was there. Audiophiles want the opportunity to upgrade. Foolishly, IMO. There are obvious ergonomic, sonic and economic advantages to proper active designs. There is no down side.

Tim

spiritofmusic · Jul 10, 2015

I can. A pair of in ear buds and an iPod.
Meridian championed active spkrs w/onboard pre/power/dac w/outboard cd transport back in the 80s, so nothing new. The same reservations pertained then, ie non upgradability of components. And less profitable business model for dealers.
It would be nice to think such a simple setup can reinvigorate the high end, but in reality the future w/the 99% is music on the mobile phone/listen on the go.
I remain skeptical this kind of approach can break this l/t trend.
If you really want to get into an expanding prospective high end trend Keith, get into a'phile headphones.
All the 'phones shows are thriving re attendances and populated w/skeptics of traditional audio re spkrs.
This is probably the future for a successful business model, not just reducing the box count - you can't compete w/no spkrs.

microstrip · Jul 10, 2015

Quoting from referred interview:

I believe the performance gains when going completely active do not outweigh some of the benefits of properly executed passive crossovers in the mid- and high-frequency sections of the loudspeaker, and therefore have ultimately not yet been achieved. Without the use of sophisticated DSP (and its sonic consequences), it is difficult, within the context of an active crossover, to implement some of the subtler curve shaping that is necessary to overcome cabinet diffraction issues and driver nonlinearities. This same curve shaping is relatively easy to implement in the context of a passive crossover, and without signal degradation. Still, I believe these limitations will be overcome in the future, and that the ultimate loudspeaker will comprise a fully active, multi-driver solution.

Andy Payor

I have no doubts that considering recent digital improvements the future goes in the referred direction. But I want to listen today, not in 2020 or 2025. And I am happy that for the last 30 years I have been enjoying great sounding passives, not being a beta-tester of the development of actives.

LenWhite · Jul 10, 2015

microstrip said:
Jeff Fritz recent words on a similar subject (Rockport Avior with subs versus Cignus)

Suffice to say that both of these speakers ( Cygnus ($62,500/pr.) and Magico's new S7 ($58,000/pr.)) would be on my shortlist if I were spending that kind of dough. If my budget permitted, I would most certainly move up to the best speaker I could buy instead of going the sub route. There might be exceptions depending on my room, of course. But generally, I believe in getting the best speaker you can afford to anchor your system and then building around that. . . . Jeff Fritz
http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/feedback/575-new-rockports-and-magicos

I have Nyal Mellor (Acoustic Frontiers) to thank for the SoundStageUltra link in my first post. Nyal was my choice to design the acoustics for my dedicated media room. In conversations Nyal told me any speaker except perhaps the most costly would benefit from a properly integrated subwoofer. I won't presume to speak for Nyal, but his credentials measuring speakers and room acoustics are evident.

I can understand speakers with at least an active low frequency configuration may be able to at least partially avoid the compromises inflected on the mids and highs resulting from the difficulty of implementing the low end performance. I intend to start paying more attention to speakers designed with active components.

rblnr · Jul 10, 2015

I've had a pair of ATC 20-2 actives for many years (great speakers!) -- all the ATC actives sound better than their passive counterparts regardless of what amps you may use. ATC has been doing actives for as long and as well as anybody.

The number of actives out there seems to be growing, so maybe there's a slow gain in market acceptance. The increasing proliferation of built-in sub amps, both in full range speakers and separate subs may be helping this.

Al M. · Aug 16, 2015

microstrip said:
Quoting from referred interview:

I believe the performance gains when going completely active do not outweigh some of the benefits of properly executed passive crossovers in the mid- and high-frequency sections of the loudspeaker, and therefore have ultimately not yet been achieved. Without the use of sophisticated DSP (and its sonic consequences), it is difficult, within the context of an active crossover, to implement some of the subtler curve shaping that is necessary to overcome cabinet diffraction issues and driver nonlinearities. This same curve shaping is relatively easy to implement in the context of a passive crossover, and without signal degradation. Still, I believe these limitations will be overcome in the future, and that the ultimate loudspeaker will comprise a fully active, multi-driver solution.

Andy Payor

I have no doubts that considering recent digital improvements the future goes in the referred direction. But I want to listen today, not in 2020 or 2025. And I am happy that for the last 30 years I have been enjoying great sounding passives, not being a beta-tester of the development of actives.

I have an active subwoofer (built-in 150 W amp), but I don't have crossover issues since there is no crossover to the main speakers. They run in parallel.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 16, 2015

Purite Audio said:
Absolutely active is the way to go, but they have for the most part always been unpopular with dealers ,as there isn't the opportunity to upgrade.
Keith.

I have such a system and yes, it's pretty neat. Here's the thing. Actives are more efficient on a number of levels, and deliver better performance per dollar. They can be a stunning bargain. So when you get the itch to upgrade, just upgrade the whole thing.

Tim

Tim

KeithR · Aug 17, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
I can. A pair of in ear buds and an iPod.
Meridian championed active spkrs w/onboard pre/power/dac w/outboard cd transport back in the 80s, so nothing new. The same reservations pertained then, ie non upgradability of components. And less profitable business model for dealers.
It would be nice to think such a simple setup can reinvigorate the high end, but in reality the future w/the 99% is music on the mobile phone/listen on the go.
I remain skeptical this kind of approach can break this l/t trend.
If you really want to get into an expanding prospective high end trend Keith, get into a'phile headphones.
All the 'phones shows are thriving re attendances and populated w/skeptics of traditional audio re spkrs.
This is probably the future for a successful business model, not just reducing the box count - you can't compete w/no spkrs.

I also think pairing Class D amps inside speakers isn't a very good sounding model and unfortunately what many active speakers are using.

Groucho · Aug 17, 2015

There is an alternative model: speakers with bypass-able or missing passive crossovers leaving the user free to choose their own amps, cables etc. DSP (e.g. a DEQX) would probably be the only practical way to implement the crossovers, based on off-the-shelf calibration files for popular models (a concept partially explored by Devialet recently).

Tremendous potential for getting into all kinds of messes with it, and until recently I might have agreed that it is too difficult for most people to cope with such a complex system. But having seen people using external passive crossovers, monoblock amps with separate power supplies, separate phono stages, and so on, it is clear that complexity per se is not a problem for some people.

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 17, 2015

KeithR said:
I also think pairing Class D amps inside speakers isn't a very good sounding model and unfortunately what many active speakers are using.

There are lots of active options with A/B amps.

Tim

Phelonious Ponk · Aug 17, 2015

Groucho said:
There is an alternative model: speakers with bypass-able or missing passive crossovers leaving the user free to choose their own amps, cables etc. DSP (e.g. a DEQX) would probably be the only practical way to implement the crossovers, based on off-the-shelf calibration files for popular models (a concept partially explored by Devialet recently).

Tremendous potential for getting into all kinds of messes with it, and until recently I might have agreed that it is too difficult for most people to cope with such a complex system. But having seen people using external passive crossovers, monoblock amps with separate power supplies, separate phono stages, and so on, it is clear that complexity per se is not a problem for some people.

That is an option for those who want to be able to upgrade, though I don't think that advantage outweighs amps engineered for, or design engineer chosen for each driver. Unless you believe you're better at system engineering/integration than the engineers you put your money into. I know I'm not.

Tim

JonFo · Aug 17, 2015

Active is definitely the way to go. Meridian nailed it years ago. Now, if only buyers would realize they are being had by the industry that wants to sell them a new amp (excuse me, tone control) every year ...

bonzo75 · Aug 18, 2015

I don't like Meridians, and the Adam Active Alpha (their biggest at 35k retail) were too painful to my ears, and that was in a good room with Trinnov, so it wasn't the room. NAvantgarde Zeros are great VFM if you are looking to save, but a bit harsh and digital sounding. I would rather go with Linn Akubarik Exakt if I was in a one box active market.

microstrip · Aug 18, 2015

Why aren´t active speaker fans commenting this perfect speaker? :

*500W bass balanced , lateral acting opposed-piston sub woofer , closed box, with phase and safe operating area corrected dynamically
*three way active
*low diffraction spherical enclosure form
*wirelessly connected and controlled streaming music box

*inexpensive

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