A very wise choice. My preferred speaker at this price range if you can not live with big SoundLabs.
Need help picking $30k speakers
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A very wise choice. My preferred speaker at this price range if you can not live with big SoundLabs.
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They measure very poorly, or at least the ones I have been exposed to have. Here are some in room, smoothed, nearfield measurements from a Wilson, I should have noted which Wilson it was. A high end speaker should not measure like this, it is terrible.
Contrast with a YG.
They measure very poorly, or at least the ones I have been exposed to have. Here are some in room, smoothed, nearfield measurements from a Wilson, I should have noted which Wilson it was. A high end speaker should not measure like this, it is terrible.
Contrast with a YG.
Nyal,
IMHO there is not such thing as a Wilson or a YG. If you post measurements you must specify models and tell us what is shown in the measurements.
But you will surely have a point here, Wilson Audio speakers are best known for their ultimate sound quality, not for their measurements.
For less than $30K, one could pick up a Wilson X1/Grand Slamm Series III. My personal favorite, particularly for that money. And expertly setup, it has truly remarkable qualities, and can be driven by high quality tubes and SS due to a fairly amp-friendly load. While i admit i am no techie, attached is one chart from Martin Colloms on the original X1 measurements which seem reasonably good.
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The Wilson looks like this if a Wilson-phile wants to ID it. Might be a Watt/Puppy?
The YG is an Anat III.
The measurements shown are off axis measurements. Only one of many important things behind how a speaker sounds. Much more on Speaker Off Axis on my blog and in Floyd Toole's book. I also like ATCs description of the important things about high performance speaker design and development.
As Floyd exhaustively shows, subjective preference for loudspeakers follows measurement quality very closely. There is no debate about this. If you prefer a colored, non-neutral sound then that's ok, it is a free world, but most people do not, they prefer flat on axis above the bass region with a smoothly varying off axis response.
Not sure what the X1 measurements are (on axis? listening window?), but they are not good, whatever they are.
There appear to be many people who don't like Wilson, or don't like Magico, or don't like Rockport, Vandersteen, etc, yet all have their adherents and all are undoubtedly "good" speakers. It's why it's so important to listen for yourself if it's going to be a major, long-term purchase.
Hi Wolf, firstly congratulations on the big upgrade, must be an exciting time for you! One thing I would like to point out after reading your post: Vandys 5s and 7s are a totally different animal to the 2s. I think the analogy that it is more of everything does not apply. I have never liked Vandys before but I am floored by the 7s. The carbon/balsa drivers set them apart from other manufacturers that I have auditioned. I have tried a number of speakers in your range, pls feel free to PM me for my comments.
Good to learn here. Nyall - thanks for your comments. I am no techie, so its always helpful to learn. The Slamms are quite an old speaker. FWIW, this what i found in MC's review of the Slamms and as you suggest, MC noted some disparities between its measurements vs its in-room response and listening tests:
From Stereophile 1994:
"...Forward Frequency Responses: Measured on-axis at 45" (acknowledging that the speaker was aligned for a 4.5m listener range), the Grand SLAMM's frequency response in the upper-mid and the treble is not as flat as I might have hoped or expected (fig.7). It requires wider than usual limits to contain it: ±3.5dB. One-third-octave smoothing did allow my standard ±3dB limits to be applied over a wide frequency range, but those raw, unsmoothed axial variations cannot go unremarked.
Fig.7 Wilson X-1/Grand SLAMM, anechoic response on tweeter axis at 45" (solid curve) with dotted treble response on listening axis (see text). Dashed curves are: "A," the response of the rear-facing ambience tweeters; "P," the nearfield response of the port; "B," the combined nearfield response of the woofers; and "M," the nearfield response of the midrange units.
My inner engineer keeps whispering that flat curves must sound better; but it ain't necessarily so. Judgment of the semi-anechoic laboratory frequency response of a loudspeaker must be tempered by assessment of the performance over a range of forward axes. You need to judge the energy uniformity seen in the forward solid angle which encompasses the listener and the relevant reflective boundaries. The overall energy response as reflected in the Room Averaged Response is also most useful.
A loudspeaker's single axial response cannot, therefore, fully reflect its perceived "sound." Yet occasionally, with untoward combinations of source quality and matching system, the X-1 did, in fact, hint at these response features. Proof that these irregularities are rather less dominant than the axial curve suggests was given in the room-averaged response (see below), where only very mild tonal-balance variations are seen over the critical areas—in close agreement with the subjective results.
From Stereophile 1994:
"...Forward Frequency Responses: Measured on-axis at 45" (acknowledging that the speaker was aligned for a 4.5m listener range), the Grand SLAMM's frequency response in the upper-mid and the treble is not as flat as I might have hoped or expected (fig.7). It requires wider than usual limits to contain it: ±3.5dB. One-third-octave smoothing did allow my standard ±3dB limits to be applied over a wide frequency range, but those raw, unsmoothed axial variations cannot go unremarked.
Fig.7 Wilson X-1/Grand SLAMM, anechoic response on tweeter axis at 45" (solid curve) with dotted treble response on listening axis (see text). Dashed curves are: "A," the response of the rear-facing ambience tweeters; "P," the nearfield response of the port; "B," the combined nearfield response of the woofers; and "M," the nearfield response of the midrange units.
My inner engineer keeps whispering that flat curves must sound better; but it ain't necessarily so. Judgment of the semi-anechoic laboratory frequency response of a loudspeaker must be tempered by assessment of the performance over a range of forward axes. You need to judge the energy uniformity seen in the forward solid angle which encompasses the listener and the relevant reflective boundaries. The overall energy response as reflected in the Room Averaged Response is also most useful.
A loudspeaker's single axial response cannot, therefore, fully reflect its perceived "sound." Yet occasionally, with untoward combinations of source quality and matching system, the X-1 did, in fact, hint at these response features. Proof that these irregularities are rather less dominant than the axial curve suggests was given in the room-averaged response (see below), where only very mild tonal-balance variations are seen over the critical areas—in close agreement with the subjective results.
I share the affinity expressed for the Vandersteen 7s and the Alexias. How great would it be to hear the 7s and the Alexias side by side, in the same room and with the same equipment and get some real answers to our preference questions?
Nyal, Have you measured the frequency response on any of the Martin-Logan speakers? I love my MLs but given how narrow is their "sweet spot" I assume that their off-axis frequency response measurement would be terrible.
Nyal, Have you measured the frequency response on any of the Martin-Logan speakers? I love my MLs but given how narrow is their "sweet spot" I assume that their off-axis frequency response measurement would be terrible.
I also like the music delivered by these two speakers. One of the things I noticed when I made the move from ML to Wilson was how good the off axis sound is with the Wilson's.
Indeed Nyal, how can several people in the review community say so many great things about alexias, if they are only OK speakers. Some of those guys have heard and measured a lot of speakers and still say they'd be happy with Alexias as their last speakers. (Bias report, I own Alexias, and I know they, like any speaker, are not perfect). And further, how do you overcome this bias if your client already owns Alexias. I would think you'd be better off saying you can make any space sound good, even accounting for the anomolies/flaws of a given speaker. (Not expecting a silk purse from a sow's ear — no offence intended to pigs.)
Nyal,
Perhaps. But it seems you also are a Wilson-phile. Welcome to the club! http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/audio/
A good friend had Wilson Sophia's with the Nagra VPA's and it sounded excellent.
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It's easier working with speakers that have a nice off axis response. Gives you much more choice in how to deal with the acoustics. If you have speakers with suckouts off axis, then you are going to get some timbral coloration if you leave the reflections untreated. Speakers with good off axis, you can leave the reflection points fully reflective if you like the sonic effect of that choice (tends to broaden soundstage and imaging).
I can work with any speaker, and I don't see that many acousticians even consider variability in off axis speaker response between different loudspeakers when they are designing rooms. I'm pretty neutral, so if someone likes a Wilson, then I'll work with that. I have plenty of clients with valves and vinyl systems too. I would not sell that kind of stuff, but I understand why people like the sound.
As it pertains to the Alexia, then that is the first Wilson I have heard that I thought sounded ok to decent. And to be fair I have only heard them twice, and never for an extended sit down audition beyond about 10 minutes. I have not had the chance to measure their off axis response yet so can't comment on whether it measures well or poorly. And like I also said, I'm mature enough to know that not everything about how a speaker sounds can be described by some simple on and off axis measurements. I only take them to give me a broad picture of what I'm dealing with and what kind of issues that might cause sonically and how an acoustic treatment plan might be designed around those speakers.
There are plenty of highly reviewed, poorly measuring, high selling speakers around, including Raidho, B&W, Wilson, etc. Many designers explicitly voice their speakers to be non-neutral, and many people buy said speakers because they are non-neutral. I'm personally not in that camp, I'm more in the faithful to the source camp. Many people think those types of speakers sound boring "too flat".
Wouldn't be an internet forum without small differences of opinion would it?
That's a clients room...Music Lovers Audio in SF.Hi Nyall, I have a lot of respect for the many informative posts you have made, and also for the convictions you have in using proper science towards good sound (as well as your balanced caveat that perhaps not EVERYTHING can be measured in a few simple tests).
Just to learn more, what speakers do you rank up there in the SOTA category? I saw your positive comments about YG. Any particular comments you might make about Rockport, Genesis, just to name 2 of my favorite all out speakers? (i refer to the Genesis 1.1 and the Rockport Arrakis). Thanks for your thoughts.
Wilson Audio, Sonusfaber and Soundlab, for example, have specific requirements and methods for positioning for stereo reproduction. Perhaps less predictable, more time consuming and dependent on the specific expertise of the installer than nice measuring speakers. But I managed to listen to them sounding exceptional once properly set. But all of them needed placement by listening. Measuremnts could help, but were not enough - the best measuring was not the best sounding place. I only referred these brands because I have large experience with them, nothing else.
BTW, spending an whole day with XLFs on castors and REW was really an enjoyable experience.
Hi Micro...its been a little while. Do you mean the REW room acoustic program? do you recommend using it even if you have a "Pedro" setting up your Wilsons?
This will indeed be a huge upgrade for me to go from 25 year old Vandy 2Cs to anything on this list. New speakers will be the last part of a revamp of my system, which started with my recent completion of a computer audio front end and continuing with an upgrade to the electronics.
A new pair of Alexias is about $48k, which is above my budget limit. I’ve heard many pairs of Wilsons over the years and some sound good to me, some not, and it hasn’t correlated with price. Most likely setup, but they aren’t on my short list. I haven’t heard (or previously heard of) Tidal speakers. The manufacturer’s website makes some intriguing claims. I would be willing to bet that the new diamond midranges that they are bringing out would cost more by themselves than my whole budget. But there is a local Tidal importer, so maybe I can find a pair to audition.
The comment from BlueFox, an owner of S5s, is very helpful, as what I’m looking for is views of people who have had the speakers on my short list over long periods and still like them. I’ve heard a lot of set ups that sound great in the showroom but that I think would drive me crazy in a few weeks. I’m trying to figure out how to audition them so that I can weed out ones that will become irritating over time. The Listen in another room technique sounds fascinating. I wonder if I can do that in a dealer showroom.
Any thoughts on whether new speakers at this price go for list price or less?
A new pair of Alexias is about $48k, which is above my budget limit. I’ve heard many pairs of Wilsons over the years and some sound good to me, some not, and it hasn’t correlated with price. Most likely setup, but they aren’t on my short list. I haven’t heard (or previously heard of) Tidal speakers. The manufacturer’s website makes some intriguing claims. I would be willing to bet that the new diamond midranges that they are bringing out would cost more by themselves than my whole budget. But there is a local Tidal importer, so maybe I can find a pair to audition.
The comment from BlueFox, an owner of S5s, is very helpful, as what I’m looking for is views of people who have had the speakers on my short list over long periods and still like them. I’ve heard a lot of set ups that sound great in the showroom but that I think would drive me crazy in a few weeks. I’m trying to figure out how to audition them so that I can weed out ones that will become irritating over time. The Listen in another room technique sounds fascinating. I wonder if I can do that in a dealer showroom.
Any thoughts on whether new speakers at this price go for list price or less?
Wolf,
Looks like you already have a short list of speakers you are interested in. As someone mentioned above, allocate some money for a travel budget. Seek out dealers you respect as well as welcoming audiophiles. Listen to the speakers on your list in various settings: dealers, people's homes, and shows.
Most importantly, trust yourself. The human brain has evolved over millions of years. It will respond intuitively and automatically - when the sound is right to you. When you hear what you like, and get a similar psychological response in several different settings, go with it. There are some guys on this site who have taken 1, 2, even 3+ months to re-learn a new sound using the brain's slower, more analytical mode. But this is a hobby and guys are free to do whatever they want to do.
Also, as I mentioned, try to hear your favorite speakers with your amps. And to be safe, allocate some extra money for upgrades. As you well know, this is how hobby goes: you get great speakers, be ready to get better amps, source, power cables, etc.
Finally, if Magico is your preferred flavor and choice, I would hold off on them - delay your gratification until S5 v2 comes out shortly. Otherwise, you would spend a whole bunch of money on a new S5 v1 speaker whose value will drop as soon as the new version comes out. When that happens, you will likely hear the new S5 also, and may take a further hit if you sell your S5 v1 and upgrade to S5 v2.
Good Luck
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