Looking for thoughtful recording company - no HD

muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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Reference Recordings have run off with a new lover, HD. My system cannot read HD, and that is alright with me. I am interested in exquisite recordings. Chesky I know about. Even so, if any of you have certain CDs made by Chesky please note them here. I would like to know if there are other recording companies you would like me to look into.

Thank you,

Vince
 

muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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Hi Steve,

You are always so thoughtful. I went right to fim. The selections look so inviting. The price is high, but if they are as good as they are presented, this should be a fine source, with one misgiving.

This is another HD mastering site. I have no need for, or interest in HD. My transport will not process it, and I am not sorry for that. If I can be convinced the HD encoding will not alter or hinder the music when not read, that would be comforting.
 

RBFC

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The FIM recordings play on regular redbook CD players. Whether they are mastered at higher sampling rates or not, the CDs are all released to play on 16/44.1 machines. Unless marked SACD or high-resolution files/DVD-R media, they're just normal CDs that have been produced carefully. Same for XRCD, XRCD-24, etc..... all play on regular CD playback equipment.

Lee
 

garylkoh

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The FIM recordings play on regular redbook CD players. Whether they are mastered at higher sampling rates or not, the CDs are all released to play on 16/44.1 machines. Unless marked SACD or high-resolution files/DVD-R media, they're just normal CDs that have been produced carefully. Same for XRCD, XRCD-24, etc..... all play on regular CD playback equipment.

Lee

Even those marked as SACD (unless I'm wrong) all have a Redbook CD layer. On some of these SACDs, the CD layer has HDCD encoding, so if you have a DAC with a HDCD decoder (or a music server which can do the same) you'll get even better sound.

Winston is extremely passionate about what he does, and you can be sure that everything that he releases will be top notch. He just threw over $100k of CDs into the dumpster because the pressing plant made a mistake and he felt that the sound was not up to his usual high standards.
 

garylkoh

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Gary

I so agree about his Ultimate Discs

I also have his special release of Jazz At The Pawn Shop. You needn't enjoy the album but the sound is kick ass terrific

If you ever get a chance to get his Ultimate Disc Master, don't hesitate. A couple of CES's ago, I helped Winston create a special set of discs - he called them Producer's Choice. We picked two CD's worth of tracks from his vast catalog and made about 10 sets direct from his digital masters. Then I hand-delivered them to a number of his friends who were demo-ing at the show.

On the final day of the show, I had to go and collect them all back to return to Winston. There were a lot of very sad faces to see them go. Those were the first prototypes of the UDM - and if redbook standard allows for 220 BLER (block error rate per second), typical audiophile CDs had less than 50 errors, and his current UDCs have less than 1.5 errors - that batch averaged less than 0.5 errors per second. Winston and I kept the two best for ourselves.
 

muralman1

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Hi Gary,

If you have read what I wrote how my system sounds on redbook CDs using a NOS DAD, you would know I would never get a DAC that has HD, or up/over samples the CD. This system is very clear of defects. I have had multiple chip players here that don't cut the mustard. I will have more here hopefully this month.

Thanks anyway

Vince
 

garylkoh

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Hi Vince,

I've read your strong opinions about using a NOS DAC.

Upsampling produces new samples of data derived from the samples that are already there. I am not a fan of upsampling either. HDCD increases data density from 16bits to "nearly" 20bit using patented technology (now owned by Microsoft).

I don't know if there is a lot of digital recording done at 44.1kHz (Bruce Brown will know better), so there will already be a lot of down-sampling done in the music you are listening to if the recording is done at 48kHz, 96kHz or 192kHz.
 

muralman1

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Jul 7, 2010
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That is what is bothering me. if in HDCD there are four more bits imbedded in the same space, how can that not get into the way of the transport reading the unadulterated music? My RCDs range in fidelity from very bad to subliminal. I have a good friend who plays just RCDs using the latest Pass Labs gear running hot rodded Apogee speakers of every make. The sound is powerful, and with excellent body.
 

Kal Rubinson

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May 4, 2010
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If you have read what I wrote how my system sounds on redbook CDs using a NOS DAD, you would know I would never get a DAC that has HD, or up/over samples the CD.
Theoretically, there is no impediment to making a NOS DAC that can handle HD.

This system is very clear of defects.
OK but by eschewing HD, it is as if you are tying one hand behind your back in these efforts.

Kal
 

muralman1

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Kal, don't worry about me not hearing it all. I have been tearing off sheets of paper from a fine lens for years. Every component i adopted has assisted in tearing the last tissue away. The material embedded in 16 bits totally blows me away. It is all there. I have had the pleasure of listening to high resolution discs here and elsewhere, DVA, SACD, and DVD. They were great, and better than the CD layer, by sometimes. The DVDs were my favorite. They seem to have more body. I don't look back on those sounds anymore due to the depth and power that lies within 16 bits.

Vince
 

RBFC

WBF Founding Member
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Even those marked as SACD (unless I'm wrong) all have a Redbook CD layer. On some of these SACDs, the CD layer has HDCD encoding, so if you have a DAC with a HDCD decoder (or a music server which can do the same) you'll get even better sound.

Winston is extremely passionate about what he does, and you can be sure that everything that he releases will be top notch. He just threw over $100k of CDs into the dumpster because the pressing plant made a mistake and he felt that the sound was not up to his usual high standards.

Not knowing about every recording in the FIM catalog, I meant to say that "SACD only" discs or high-res only files/DVD-Rs are the ones that won't play on redbook players. Any hybrid SACD should have a redbook CD layer, and the comparison between that and the SACD stereo layer might prove interesting!

Lee
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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I get what they're doing with newly recorded music and how it might have superior fidelity. What are they doing to existing stuff like Getz/Gilberto? Are these remasters? This small company has access to these classic masters? If they are remasters of classic jazz recordings artfully and lovingly done, I'm very interested.

P
 

muralman1

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Lee, what I am trying to say is yes, DVD sounded better than CDs in an older player I had. SACD might have had an edge on the sublayer CD. The fact is, my gear now supersedes those hi rez sounds by leaps and bounds. I really do not believe any player playing SACD can rival the music I put together here. I am waiting for anyone to prove I am wrong. Steve Williams will have that chance by and by.

It isn't the format that is the crux of the problem. It is the players themselves that lack. It is their DAC that over samples, and their filters that dull the music.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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Vince,

Like you, Winston is trying to extract the maximum possible from 16bits 44.1kHz. All you need to do is to try out his K2HD remastering of Oscar Peterson's We Get Requests (better yet, an Ultimate Disc) against any other version and you will understand.

Cheers
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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I get what they're doing with newly recorded music and how it might have superior fidelity. What are they doing to existing stuff like Getz/Gilberto? Are these remasters? This small company has access to these classic masters? If they are remasters of classic jazz recordings artfully and lovingly done, I'm very interested.

Yes, they are. Passionately, artfully and lovingly done. Having worked with Winston, I can attest to the meticulous care that he takes in everything he does.

Winston has a lot of respect from many quarters. He will only do it if he can get access to the first generation master, and some of these companies will only let him have the 1st generation masters if he personally turns up at the vault and hand-carries it out.

For example, the FIM K2HD version Jazz in the Pawnshop is from the first generation master. The previous FIM issues were from the 2nd generation master of Side A, and 1st generation of Side B. A lot of the vinyl re-issues are from 2nd generation or 3rd generation masters. I have a 1st generation pressing of JatP, and it is far superior to all other re-issues and re-masters.
 

amirm

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Apr 2, 2010
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That is what is bothering me. if in HDCD there are four more bits imbedded in the same space, how can that not get into the way of the transport reading the unadulterated music?
Well, it is an extreme neat trick :).

HDCD takes advantage of the fact that your music is not jumping from very loud to very faint every millisecond. If you look at the spectrum of your music, you see that there are loud passages and not so loud passages. When the music gets loud, you don't hear the faint sounds. But when the levels get low, you do.

HDCD takes advantage of above by making the 16-bit represent different levels of loudness. When the music is quiet, it represents the bottom most 16 bits of 20 bit music. When the music is very loud, then it represents the upper 16 bits out of 20. When in between, then the level corresponds to that range.

The HDCD decoder therefore needs to be instructed to change the representative sample values based on what the encoder saw. The information is buried in the low order bits of audio. Since the volume in the music doesn't change rapidly, that information is sparsely inserted. It is further modulated to resemble noise, acting as dither.

Putting it together, HDCD represents a 20-bit value in 16 bits of CD format by getting rid of information that is either zero (upper bits when the music is not so loud) or the low order bits (which would not be audible when the music is loud). A special form of essentially lossless compression.

Make sense?
 

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