Greek Manufacturer Shutdown?
- Thread starter dallasjustice
- Start date
Hope you're right Jim, but then explain why we have to print trillions to service our debt if its so insignificant? But I wasn't comparing just pointing out that could also print their way out if not for the Euro.
david
I believe they are that stupid, or maybe it is human nature to assume the rainbow is just beyond the horizon. Whatever the case, Greece is possibly setting itself up for a type of government the people will certainly not like in the longterm. The Nationalists already have a foothold in Greece, and dealing with them never turns out to be pretty. Theirs is the Golden Dawn Party which has only a few seats in the Greek parliament right now, but they are there, nonetheless. Such radical groups tend to grow in desperate times, however. I believe this is a very dangerous time for Greece.
We will have to deal with it one day...you can't tax the productive people to death.Christian,
Welcome to the Twenty First Century.
Thanks ddk not to call me, as a german, DarthVader
Any comparison between the debt of greece and the US is not really possible, as there are some "minor" differences between greece and the US, as size, population, economic power,
To raise the amount of money in circulation in countries with a weak economic performance is not leading to positive end, see Venezuela.
The austerity programs in europe are not very popular, not only for the people in these countries, but also among many economists. But reality beats theory. Germany has undergone austerity programs between 2002 and 2005 (true, austerity in germany is not as hard as in other countries), but those countries are successful again.
If greece would be out of the Eurozone, back to the dracme, the more money they print, the more the inflation will rise. And the exchange rate Euro/dracme will become disastrous.
Regarding to the rules of this forum, we are own dangerous ground in this thread:
But Moisin has already mentioned the political dangers: a country with a disastrous economy, and a government with far left and far rightwing parties. Reminds me of our own german history...
So lets hope, the greek people make the right decision today.
Any comparison between the debt of greece and the US is not really possible, as there are some "minor" differences between greece and the US, as size, population, economic power,
To raise the amount of money in circulation in countries with a weak economic performance is not leading to positive end, see Venezuela.
The austerity programs in europe are not very popular, not only for the people in these countries, but also among many economists. But reality beats theory. Germany has undergone austerity programs between 2002 and 2005 (true, austerity in germany is not as hard as in other countries), but those countries are successful again.
If greece would be out of the Eurozone, back to the dracme, the more money they print, the more the inflation will rise. And the exchange rate Euro/dracme will become disastrous.
Regarding to the rules of this forum, we are own dangerous ground in this thread:
But Moisin has already mentioned the political dangers: a country with a disastrous economy, and a government with far left and far rightwing parties. Reminds me of our own german history...
So lets hope, the greek people make the right decision today.
You seem to have idle hopes that that money will be paid back eventually whether in euros or drachmes , its gone ....simply a bad investment fire the people who have okayd the deal and let the banks go under , give the greeks a new start it worked fine in Iceland.
And yes switzerland seems to be the most democratic country in europe
Furthermore in the londondebt agreement in 1953 , Germany itself was relieved of much of its debt by its creditornations :
the repayable amount was reduced by 50% to about 15 billion marks and stretched out over 30 years
An important term of the agreement was that repayments were only due while West Germany ran a trade surplus, and that repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings. This gave Germany’s creditors a powerful incentive to import German goods, assisting reconstruction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts
....simply a bad investment fire the people who have okayd the deal and let the banks go under , give the greeks a new start it worked fine in Iceland.And yes switzerland seems to be the most democratic country in europe
Furthermore in the londondebt agreement in 1953 , Germany itself was relieved of much of its debt by its creditornations :
the repayable amount was reduced by 50% to about 15 billion marks and stretched out over 30 years
An important term of the agreement was that repayments were only due while West Germany ran a trade surplus, and that repayments were limited to 3% of export earnings. This gave Germany’s creditors a powerful incentive to import German goods, assisting reconstruction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Agreement_on_German_External_Debts
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Jan is right about all of this. Unfortunately, Greece has no more chips to cash in. They are convinced that they are still in the game, even though the dealer has already called their hand. Now, it is sink or swim time. The sad part is that the Greeks fail to see the ramifications of their own dilemma. So far, they have made bad choices, so what is to stop that trend now?
Tsipras sees himself as the hero Odysseus, leading a great nation of seafarers through Skylla and Charybdis, represented by evil Germany and the rest of the eurozone, and after that adventure (translates into referendum), everything will be fine. Unfortunately, he might not have read the saga complete, because Odysseus lost half of his crew during that episode, and in the end, he was the the lone survivor, forever famous, but without any crew.
Greece already received a debt relief of 100 billion Euros, and certainly will receive further debt reliefs in the future. Greece doesn't have to pay interest rates, the payment of the rates have been prolonged until 2052.
But, as everybody is only looking at gtreece, one forgets that all those other governments in the eurozone want to be reelected one day, so its crucial to sell the the truth slice by slice and not in one piece. All nations have to look after their budgets, and the instant loss of 87.6 billion euros for germany would have great impact to the economy and political scene.
It would help everybody to see what greece is: a country with institutions and authorities have the level of a threshold country, it needs support for nation building. But unfortunately, is to proud to accept help. Germany supposed to send tax specialists to support the build up of a working tax system, greece didn't accept this (I can very well understand that there are historical reasons for that).
But the greek government does not only want to get more financial support without reforming the country, it wants to change the way europe works. This has become evident in every negotation between Iannis Varoufakis and the ministers of finance of the rest of the Eurozone. They have always been complaining that Mr. Varoufakis gives them marxist lessons of how they should run europe. In every negotiation it doesn't seem wise to call ones counterparts idiots and then to ask for more money. Or to negotiate a treaty to the end, only to announce a referendum the next day asking the greek people to vote 'NO'. Mr Varoufakis is calling the other members of the eurozone and the ECB terrorists, because they are not longer supplying greece with money.
According to andromeda's link to the german debt relief in 1953: very good comparison. It was mostly debts germany couldn't pay back because of the self inflicted catastrophe of the third Reich and WW2. It was mainly debts from reparations after WW1. The protest against these 'unjust debts of shame' helped in 1933 the Nationalsozialisten to be elected..........
The result of this debt relief was helping germany's economy, but compared to greece we had definitely not the social system we have now and Greece wants to keep. Germany paid back the complete amount , the last payment was made in October 2010. The US strongly supported this debt relief for Germany, as they wanted a strong Germany at the frontier of the iron curtain.
We should want to keep greece in the Eurozone, but not with the greek conditions and not for the price of the loss of the complete EU.
Greece already received a debt relief of 100 billion Euros, and certainly will receive further debt reliefs in the future. Greece doesn't have to pay interest rates, the payment of the rates have been prolonged until 2052.
But, as everybody is only looking at gtreece, one forgets that all those other governments in the eurozone want to be reelected one day, so its crucial to sell the the truth slice by slice and not in one piece. All nations have to look after their budgets, and the instant loss of 87.6 billion euros for germany would have great impact to the economy and political scene.
It would help everybody to see what greece is: a country with institutions and authorities have the level of a threshold country, it needs support for nation building. But unfortunately, is to proud to accept help. Germany supposed to send tax specialists to support the build up of a working tax system, greece didn't accept this (I can very well understand that there are historical reasons for that).
But the greek government does not only want to get more financial support without reforming the country, it wants to change the way europe works. This has become evident in every negotation between Iannis Varoufakis and the ministers of finance of the rest of the Eurozone. They have always been complaining that Mr. Varoufakis gives them marxist lessons of how they should run europe. In every negotiation it doesn't seem wise to call ones counterparts idiots and then to ask for more money. Or to negotiate a treaty to the end, only to announce a referendum the next day asking the greek people to vote 'NO'. Mr Varoufakis is calling the other members of the eurozone and the ECB terrorists, because they are not longer supplying greece with money.
According to andromeda's link to the german debt relief in 1953: very good comparison. It was mostly debts germany couldn't pay back because of the self inflicted catastrophe of the third Reich and WW2. It was mainly debts from reparations after WW1. The protest against these 'unjust debts of shame' helped in 1933 the Nationalsozialisten to be elected..........
The result of this debt relief was helping germany's economy, but compared to greece we had definitely not the social system we have now and Greece wants to keep. Germany paid back the complete amount , the last payment was made in October 2010. The US strongly supported this debt relief for Germany, as they wanted a strong Germany at the frontier of the iron curtain.
We should want to keep greece in the Eurozone, but not with the greek conditions and not for the price of the loss of the complete EU.
To me this EU circus is like a big dog and pony show where they close the door once you are in and keep enlarging the entrance fee , i think were in for the next downhill episode
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piW6q2yKhfY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piW6q2yKhfY
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His is a case where ideology overshadows reality and reason.
This was my point earlier, although in a more subtle way. Greece seems to be headed down a similar path.
I was told (or read about) a couple years back about Greece having hired a fellow to analyse the financials of the country (similar to Simpson-Bowles), in the early rounds of Greece needing bailouts. The fellow reported huge corruption, graft, etc. so what did they do, they charged and imprisoned him so his voice would not be heard. In almost every third world country that can't seem to create a functioning government or economy, corruption is probably the single most influencing factor. The best intentions are quickly thwarted by corrupt beaurocrats, same as it ever was.
This was the easy Question:
Ballot paper question
"Should the agreement plan submitted by the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund to the Eurogroup of 25 June, 2015, and comprised of two parts which make up their joint proposal, be accepted? The first document is titled "reforms for the completion of the current programme and beyond" and the second "Preliminary debt sustainability analysis".
Voters must check one of two boxes - "not approved/no" or, below it, "approved/yes"
The content of this agreement plant is not known by the greek people or easy to understand.
The rest of the EU translated this question into: Do you want to stay in the Eurozone, vote yes, if you want to leave the eurozone, vote no.
Unfortunately the Syria movement achieved a different view by the greek people:
Do we, as proud greek people, have to do what foreign members of the eurozone are telling us to do, and do we as very proud greek people want further cuts in the social system and do we as a proud nation, renounce (?) more money from the eurozone because of solidarity: Vote no
If you want foreign oppression of the greek people and further cuts in the welfare system: vote yes.
With this result of a a more or less democratic election, 60% saying no, Mr. Tsipras can't make any compromise in the negotiations. A YES would have enabled him to make compromises. But, as discussed earlier, it is more a question of ideology than of reality. With this vote, Syria and Mr. Tsipras will try to blackmail the rest of the eurozone.
Why is this election 'more or less' democratic: see above, if the question ist not precise, or can be interpreted in different ways, or the facts of the issues behind the question is not known by the average greece, it doesn't meet the standards of a real referendum, like the ones they have in Switzerland or regionally here in germany.
Let's see what the ECB will do today, as greece is definitely running out of money.
If greece goes bankrupt, Syria will blame germany and the Eurozone: They didn't follow the democratic vote of 10 Mio greek voters (Voters total in the EU: 400 Mio)
Ballot paper question
"Should the agreement plan submitted by the European Commission, the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund to the Eurogroup of 25 June, 2015, and comprised of two parts which make up their joint proposal, be accepted? The first document is titled "reforms for the completion of the current programme and beyond" and the second "Preliminary debt sustainability analysis".
Voters must check one of two boxes - "not approved/no" or, below it, "approved/yes"
The content of this agreement plant is not known by the greek people or easy to understand.
The rest of the EU translated this question into: Do you want to stay in the Eurozone, vote yes, if you want to leave the eurozone, vote no.
Unfortunately the Syria movement achieved a different view by the greek people:
Do we, as proud greek people, have to do what foreign members of the eurozone are telling us to do, and do we as very proud greek people want further cuts in the social system and do we as a proud nation, renounce (?) more money from the eurozone because of solidarity: Vote no
If you want foreign oppression of the greek people and further cuts in the welfare system: vote yes.
With this result of a a more or less democratic election, 60% saying no, Mr. Tsipras can't make any compromise in the negotiations. A YES would have enabled him to make compromises. But, as discussed earlier, it is more a question of ideology than of reality. With this vote, Syria and Mr. Tsipras will try to blackmail the rest of the eurozone.
Why is this election 'more or less' democratic: see above, if the question ist not precise, or can be interpreted in different ways, or the facts of the issues behind the question is not known by the average greece, it doesn't meet the standards of a real referendum, like the ones they have in Switzerland or regionally here in germany.
Let's see what the ECB will do today, as greece is definitely running out of money.
If greece goes bankrupt, Syria will blame germany and the Eurozone: They didn't follow the democratic vote of 10 Mio greek voters (Voters total in the EU: 400 Mio)
If the rest of Europe gives in to the Greeks on this, the entire Eurozone is compromised, in my opinion. A dangerous precedent will be set that overshadows any fallout from merely the Greek situation. A lot more is at stake, so it is not really a Catch-22. The problem is that the Greeks cannot seem to see the larger picture.
The die is cast; Europe must do without Greece. Greece is now what bankers here call an R9 charge-off, and the common man calls a deadbeat.
The die is cast; Europe must do without Greece. Greece is now what bankers here call an R9 charge-off, and the common man calls a deadbeat.
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