Greek Manufacturer Shutdown?

dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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Are capital controls in Greece restricting Greek audio companies from making payments to parts suppliers outside the country? There are many Greek audio manufacturers including Ypsilon, Tandem stands and racks, Sonus Aeterna, Mythos Audio, Crystal Audio, Analysis Audio, Audio Spectrum and Tune Audio. It appears the capital controls if left in place offers to totally cripple any small business which relies on imports to operate production.

I remember I met Demetris Backlavas of Ypsilon at RMAF a few years back. I urged him at that time to move his business out of Greece. I suggested he move it to Colorado. He didn't seem to be interested in my thoughts about the future of Greece.

Will all of these Greek audio manufacturers soon be out of business?

Btw, I love this documentary about some wacky Greek audiophiles.
https://vimeo.com/14253947
 

Mosin

[Industry Expert]
Mar 11, 2012
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Are capital controls in Greece restricting Greek audio companies from making payments to parts suppliers outside the country? There are many Greek audio manufacturers including Ypsilon, Tandem stands and racks, Sonus Aeterna, Mythos Audio, Crystal Audio, Analysis Audio, Audio Spectrum and Tune Audio. It appears the capital controls if left in place offers to totally cripple any small business which relies on imports to operate production.

I remember I met Demetris Backlavas of Ypsilon at RMAF a few years back. I urged him at that time to move his business out of Greece. I suggested he move it to Colorado. He didn't seem to be interested in my thoughts about the future of Greece.

Will all of these Greek audio manufacturers soon be out of business?

Btw, I love this documentary about some wacky Greek audiophiles.
https://vimeo.com/14253947

If they stay in Greece much longer, I believe they are history. Look at Greece; it's the Weimar Republic all over again.
 

dallasjustice

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If they stay in Greece much longer, I believe they are history. Look at Greece; it's the Weimar Republic all over again.

My best guess is that the people of Greece will vote YES on Thursday and there will be subsequent agreements to accept the austerity terms. I don't think the Greeks have the stomach for forming a new Governmnet and currency since that will take time, not to mention what happens to pensions.

Anything seems possible now. The worst case scenario for Germany would be a successful withdrawal from the EU. This seems like a real possibility since the Greek economy can't fall much further. If Greece skates all that debt and can restart their economy in a year, the EU is totally finished. The Germans can't let that happen.
 

Elberoth

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They will vote no, I'm pretty sure about that. They are brainwashed by both Greek media and their politicians.

The avg Greek blames Greece problems on some invisible force that wants to destroy 'the great' Greece. They blame everyone but themselves. It means they haven't understood anything.

It is a sick economy. A coutry where tax evasion became a national sport, a country where you get so called 13th and 14th salary (even though the year has 12 months ...) and where you even get compensation from your employer, when the building you work in doesn't have a lift (!).
 

andromedaaudio

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Jan 23, 2011
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Well i am sure a lot manufacturers have businessaccounts with international banks , they are able to withdraw " unlimited " amounts of cash not the 60 euro limit as for greekbank accounts .
(Furthermore i wish the greek people all the best , without this miserable undemocratic institution called EU , i hope holland is next to leave this sinking ship )
 

dallasjustice

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If other countries follow, certainly the Greeks have set the model on how to do it. To me, it's like the housewife who wants a divorce from a rich husband. She simply spends everything in the accounts and maxes out his credit shortly before filing for divorce. :)

Well i am sure a lot manufacturers have businessaccounts with international banks , they are able to withdraw " unlimited " amounts of cash not the 60 euro limit as for greekbank accounts .
(Furthermore i wish the greek people all the best , without this miserable undemocratic institution called EU , i hope holland is next to leave this sinking ship )
 

andromedaaudio

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The ordinary greeks dont/ didnt see anything of the bail out money , it is maybe one day in Greece then its transferred to german and French banks as well as IMF as interest on loans( modern slavery) , 60 % youth unemployment ,another 30 % pensioncut , here is a you tube link from a dutch journalist who did a 2 year research on the banking system , there are some parts in english ,16:00 min the vid
Basically the EU central bank uses my taxmoney to pay the interest on bank loans gone bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZzOXqxNmFI
 

marty

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Apr 20, 2010
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Btw, I love this documentary about some wacky Greek audiophiles.
https://vimeo.com/14253947

Thanks for this wonderful video. This really shows the joy of our hobby, beautifully depicted. It's clear they are music lovers first, and audiophiles second and most importantly, enjoy each others comraderie. As an aside, I'll be these guys have disagreements but don't threaten to leave their audio club as a result. Maybe they're not the wacky ones after all?
 

Elberoth

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Dec 15, 2012
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The ordinary greeks dont/ didnt see anything of the bail out money , it is maybe one day in Greece then its transferred to german and French banks as well as IMF as interest on loans( modern slavery) , 60 % youth unemployment ,another 30 % pensioncut , here is a you tube link from a dutch journalist who did a 2 year research on the banking system , there are some parts in english ,16:00 min the vid
Basically the EU central bank uses my taxmoney to pay interest on bank loans gone bad

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZzOXqxNmFI

Young Greeks have noone to blame but their parents.
 

Elberoth

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True. They should go back to drahma and devaluate to became competitive again.
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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They will vote no, I'm pretty sure about that. They are brainwashed by both Greek media and their politicians.

The avg Greek blames Greece problems on some invisible force that wants to destroy 'the great' Greece. They blame everyone but themselves. It means they haven't understood anything.

It is a sick economy. A coutry where tax evasion became a national sport, a country where you get so called 13th and 14th salary (even though the year has 12 months ...) and where you even get compensation from your employer, when the building you work in doesn't have a lift (!).

This reads SO MUCH like my own country that it's not even funny. We ALSO have a 13th/14th salary. And benefits go much further than compensation for walking up the stairs... No wonder we're in the toilet, as much as the greeks, if not more...

And the blame is always elsewhere. We've been hearing about this "international crisis" forever, yet our neighbours grow by 3-4%, and we linger at 0,1%.
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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The "13th/14th salary" argument must always be qualified: on a yearly basis, the salary is what it is; it's just broken down into 14 payments - but... notice, we are talking about salaried folks. Where it becomes an issue is pensions, where it looks like a bonus - but whether it is actually a bonus or not depends on how social security tax was collected originally: if it was collected on all 14 salary disbursements, then pensioners are entitled to get it back at some point, and it's not a bonus; but if the 13th and 14th salary disbursements were not subject to social security taxation originally, then the 13/14th pension payments are probably a bonus - but... what if the government were to say: well, the pension is based on tax collection that was originally based on 12 disbursements when the person was salaried, and I am just breaking it up into 14 disbursements... In other words, the devil is always in the details. I find politics fun, like a good chess game.

There are much more serious issues than this, like tax evasion and VAT collection.
 

Elberoth

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I'm pretty sure they the EU will force Grece to go into default and out of euro zone (not the EU). The game is about Spain, not Greece. Greece is a lost case already.
 

Mosin

[Industry Expert]
Mar 11, 2012
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True. They should go back to drahma and devaluate to became competitive again.

Yes, and they should look at their neighbor, Romania, for a clue. Romania started from the worst possible place in Eastern Europe, and now has a steady 2% annual growth rate. It doesn't sound like much, but it is better than most of Europe. The only way they could go was up, of course. Still, they have managed to do it with some extremely sensible economic polices. I fear that Greece will soon be in the "only way, but up" circumstance. At least, they have a model to follow.


I'm pretty sure they the EU will force Greece to go into default and out of euro zone (not the EU). The game is about Spain, not Greece. Greece is a lost case already.

True. Germany and the others cannot afford the precedent of having a spoiled child who holds his breath and kicks his feet on the floor until he gets what he wants. If they do, the other children will follow. That would surely spell catastrophe. Besides, the German people won't support much more of this nonsense.

Is it more symbolism than substance, though? Consider the hoopla made over a 1.6 billion dollar default. Is it really so much when compared to the 72 billion dollar default that lies right around the corner for the US territory, Puerto Rico?


Back to topic:

If the Greek manufacturers haven't planned ahead for this possibility, they are in big, big trouble. That's my take on it, anyway.
 

dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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I recommend "The Tower of Basel" by Adam Lebor for anyone interested in European banking, EU formation and the basic design flaws in the EU from its inception. This book is written as a history on the Bank of International Settlements which includes Switzerland's key role in providing important banking to the Nazi regime during WWII to steal gold from Jews. Most everyone already knows that.

To me, the most interesting part of the book is the role the BIS played in forming the EU and the warnings it's given the EU concerning the important design flaws in the Union; eg. centralized monetary policy without control over fiscal policy. It was also very interesting to learn how desperately the German government pursued the Union. It's impossible to underestimate how much Germany really needs the Union to succeed.

No matter how the Greek situation works out, we will see this scenario repeat as long as the EU remains structured in this way. Here's a review of the book:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/books/review/tower-of-basel-by-adam-lebor.html?mwrsm=Email
 

Elberoth

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Dec 15, 2012
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I recommend "The Tower of Basel" by Adam Lebor for anyone interested in European banking, EU formation and the basic design flaws in the EU from its inception. This book is written as a history on the Bank of International Settlements which includes Switzerland's key role in providing important banking to the Nazi regime during WWII to steal gold from Jews. Most everyone already knows that.

To me, the most interesting part of the book is the role the BIS played in forming the EU and the warnings it's given the EU concerning the important design flaws in the Union; eg. centralized monetary policy without control over fiscal policy. It was also very interesting to learn how desperately the German government pursued the Union. It's impossible to underestimate how much Germany really needs the Union to succeed.

No matter how the Greek situation works out, we will see this scenario repeat as long as the EU remains structured in this way. Here's a review of the book:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/books/review/tower-of-basel-by-adam-lebor.html?mwrsm=Email

Agreed, this is one of the key points.
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
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The "13th/14th salary" argument must always be qualified: on a yearly basis, the salary is what it is; it's just broken down into 14 payments - but... notice, we are talking about salaried folks. Where it becomes an issue is pensions, where it looks like a bonus - but whether it is actually a bonus or not depends on how social security tax was collected originally: if it was collected on all 14 salary disbursements, then pensioners are entitled to get it back at some point, and it's not a bonus; but if the 13th and 14th salary disbursements were not subject to social security taxation originally, then the 13/14th pension payments are probably a bonus - but... what if the government were to say: well, the pension is based on tax collection that was originally based on 12 disbursements when the person was salaried, and I am just breaking it up into 14 disbursements... In other words, the devil is always in the details. I find politics fun, like a good chess game.

There are much more serious issues than this, like tax evasion and VAT collection.

Good post, but you miss one other main point. 25% of the workforce were Govt employees with ability to retire at 50 years old! Not sure how much of that changed since 2010.

EU is NOT blameless though, as all this was known and perhaps even encouraged until the crisis. Athens had the highest percapita rates of pools of any city in Europe and Porsche sold more Cayannes to Greece than anywhere else.All this sue to easy credit after the switch to the Euro and agriculture was decimated. Greece import olives now?

Oh, and Germany is NOT blameless either. They like others turned a blind eye during the years of "prosperity" when sales were racked up with cheap credit given out like confetti.
 

wisnon

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2011
3,525
635
1,200
I recommend "The Tower of Basel" by Adam Lebor for anyone interested in European banking, EU formation and the basic design flaws in the EU from its inception. This book is written as a history on the Bank of International Settlements which includes Switzerland's key role in providing important banking to the Nazi regime during WWII to steal gold from Jews. Most everyone already knows that.

To me, the most interesting part of the book is the role the BIS played in forming the EU and the warnings it's given the EU concerning the important design flaws in the Union; eg. centralized monetary policy without control over fiscal policy. It was also very interesting to learn how desperately the German government pursued the Union. It's impossible to underestimate how much Germany really needs the Union to succeed.

No matter how the Greek situation works out, we will see this scenario repeat as long as the EU remains structured in this way. Here's a review of the book:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/books/review/tower-of-basel-by-adam-lebor.html?mwrsm=Email

Dont confuse the EU with the Eurozone monetray union! many EU members are NOT in the Euro, like the UK and Scandinavia. Poland still has the Zloty and Hungary the Florin.
 

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