Vertere RG-1 Turntable

ddk · Jun 24, 2015

garylkoh said:
In the very early 1990's, that would be the very first version of the Xerses. The company only started in 1987. There were a number of problems with that first design that resulted in the plinth sagging as TBone said. Pinning the plinth up resulted in it sounding mediocre.

As a resident "industry expert" please have a look at what he has done over the past 25 years before making a statement like that. To judge Touraj's body of work based on his freshman design and to say that the Roksan Xerses is a mediocre mid-fi design is disappointing.

For all intents and purposes Gary, Roksan brand and their products have always been made and priced for the mid-fi market, both in the UK and here. As another resident "industry expert" you're well aware of this, why is my comment about the jump from mid-fi, and actually low-fi when you consider the Artemiz to a $35k arm, disappointing?

Xerxes table was on the market for about 4-5 years before I purchased mine, certainly enough time to fine tune and debug a product! That's not an excuse. I googled Mr. Moghaddam and his company didn't find anything. Please indulge me, besides some evolutionary modifications to the Xerxes which was never high end product in the real sense, has he ever built a high end tt since his "freshman design"? The RG-1 looks like the same basic "freshman design" too, with upgraded parts and acrylic instead of mdf, not a new or different concept. Am I wrong?

david

spiritofmusic · Jun 24, 2015

DDK, I concur. I owned an all-Roksan rig in the mid 90s (my first high end system) incl the Xerxes 10/Artemiz/Shiraz/ArtaXerxes phono. The plus points were a very direct, crisp, neutral presentation. Otoh, I found the sound l/t uninvolving, lacking texture, and ultimately fatigueing. This was just my experience, many love their Xerxes'.
I must hand it to Touraj, he is an extremely talented engineer, and released the Xerxes right at the high point of the Linn Sondek LP12 stranglehold on the UK tt market - and won! Mainly due to the Xerxes being better engineered than the LP12. I believe the Touraj and Roksan went on to sell more tts than Linn w/the LP12. Engineering trumped marketing - and LP12 marketing in the 80s/90s was something to behold!
He then went on to refine the Xerxes into his flagship TMS and TMS 2 and 3 in time. This took the nested plinth principle to it's ultimate, isolating plinth, motor, bearing, platter and feet separately, refining the unsuspended/suspended principle.
This Vertere RG-1 tt looks VERY similar to the TMS, the main differences being acrylic instaed of MDF, and his patented uber bearing. I really can't comment on the differences in tech/sq, but the two tt's sure look similar, 20 yrs apart.
Interestingly the original TMS retailed for £2.5k/$4k in '95 - 20 yrs on, what does the Vertere cost?

ddk · Jun 24, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
DDK, I concur. I owned an all-Roksan rig in the mid 90s (my first high end system) incl the Xerxes 10/Artemiz/Shiraz/ArtaXerxes phono. The plus points were a very direct, crisp, neutral presentation. Otoh, I found the sound l/t uninvolving, lacking texture, and ultimately fatigueing. This was just my experience, many love their Xerxes'.
I must hand it to Touraj, he is an extremely talented engineer, and released the Xerxes right at the high point of the Linn Sondek LP12 stranglehold on the UK tt market - and won! Mainly due to the Xerxes being better engineered than the LP12. I believe the Touraj and Roksan went on to sell more tts than Linn w/the LP12. Engineering trumped marketing - and LP12 marketing in the 80s/90s was something to behold!
He then went on to refine the Xerxes into his flagship TMS and TMS 2 and 3 in time. This took the nested plinth principle to it's ultimate, isolating plinth, motor, bearing, platter and feet separately, refining the unsuspended/suspended principle.
This Vertere RG-1 tt looks VERY similar to the TMS, the main differences being acrylic instaed of MDF, and his patented uber bearing. I really can't comment on the differences in tech/sq, but the two tt's sure look similar, 20 yrs apart.
Interestingly the original TMS retailed for £2.5k/$4k in '95 - 20 yrs on, what does the Vertere cost?

The current Xerxes .20 plus is only in the $3500-$4000 range, I just don't the leap to the Vertere. What the LP12 had which none of its British competitors matched was musicality. Right or wrong, that thing got your head shaking and your foot tapping involuntarily.

david

TBone · Jun 24, 2015

>>DDK, I concur. I owned an all-Roksan rig in the mid 90s (my first high end system) incl the Xerxes 10/Artemiz/Shiraz/ArtaXerxes phono. The plus points were a very direct, crisp, neutral presentation. Otoh, I found the sound l/t uninvolving, lacking texture, and ultimately fatigueing. This was just my experience, many love their Xerxes'<<

... many loved their LP12s, I have my own experiences. And considering that day and age, analog reproduction was even more of a -sonic- moving target, even using common front-ends; in which two separate systems could sound unrelated. Plenty lp12 sagas (even w/their digital gear) as examples, along with other Scottish brethren's. In some systems, absolutely wow, in others ...nyah ...

the orig.xerxes was considered hi-end, in my neck of the woods, some influential scribs agreed, so I'm a little hesitant to be as dismissive of their products today.

spiritofmusic · Jun 24, 2015

DDK, that's true. You don't know how powerful the hold that the LP12 had on the UK tt market - it just cleaned up in the mid to late 70s/80s, until Roksan, and to some extent Pink Triangle, came along. The SME 20 and 30 sailed serenely above all the others as engineering powerhouses. In the 70s Linn peddled the line successfully that it was ALL about the source, and moved the emphasis of purchasing back to the tt (w/no cd in those days, that meant 95% lps/5% tape) from esp loudspeakers.
And the LP12 "won" the argument that belt drive was the way to go, spelling the death knell for direct drive eg Technics SP10/rim drive eg Garrard 401 etc.
What the evolutionary jump has been btwn the Xerxes 10, TMS 3 and Vertere RG-10 is, I can't say - but appearances don't suggest much has changed in 20 yrs - except the price!

TBone · Jun 24, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
but appearances don't suggest much has changed in 20 yrs - except the price!

that i'd expect, much of yesterdays gear would cost plenty more today.

ddk · Jun 24, 2015

TBone said:
>>DDK, I concur. I owned an all-Roksan rig in the mid 90s (my first high end system) incl the Xerxes 10/Artemiz/Shiraz/ArtaXerxes phono. The plus points were a very direct, crisp, neutral presentation. Otoh, I found the sound l/t uninvolving, lacking texture, and ultimately fatigueing. This was just my experience, many love their Xerxes'<<

... many loved their LP12s, I have my own experiences. And considering that day and age, analog reproduction was even more of a -sonic- moving target, even using common front-ends; in which two separate systems could sound unrelated. Plenty lp12 sagas (even w/their digital gear) as examples, along with other Scottish brethren's. In some systems, absolutely wow, in others ...nyah ...

the orig.xerxes was considered hi-end, in my neck of the woods, some influential scribs agreed, so I'm a little hesitant to be as dismissive of their products today.

Not dismissive Anthony the Xerxes was at $600 when introduced and now its $4k, that's not the high end market. The rules and expectations are very different for a $4k table and a $35k one, I'm trying to see how he got there in one leap. The LP12 was touted as high end by Linn and certain media but reality was different. Linn was upper mid at best. Both price wise and sonically high end was defined by others at the time, certainly not the Brits.

david

ddk · Jun 24, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
DDK, that's true. You don't know how powerful the hold that the LP12 had on the UK tt market - it just cleaned up in the mid to late 70s/80s, until Roksan, and to some extent Pink Triangle, came along. The SME 20 and 30 sailed serenely above all the others as engineering powerhouses. In the 70s Linn peddled the line successfully that it was ALL about the source, and moved the emphasis of purchasing back to the tt (w/no cd in those days, that meant 95% lps/5% tape) from esp loudspeakers.
And the LP12 "won" the argument that belt drive was the way to go, spelling the death knell for direct drive eg Technics SP10/rim drive eg Garrard 401 etc.
What the evolutionary jump has been btwn the Xerxes 10, TMS 3 and Vertere RG-10 is, I can't say - but appearances don't suggest much has changed in 20 yrs - except the price!

I lived in London from 1980-1985, I remember well how LP12 ruled Britain, even their Isobarik speakers with either Exposure or Naim electronics were considered the ultimate, and they were pretty good. PT, Voyd, Roksan and the Thorens TD 160s were all considered cheaper, 2nd fiddle alternatives the mighty Linn in that market. The Garrard was already dead as a company by that time. If I'm not mistaken the only British table priced above the Linn was the Townsend Rock and of course Ricardo had upped the price bar with the Oracle table. I don't even remember the SP-10 even made it to the British market when I lived there.

david

spiritofmusic · Jun 24, 2015

I'm going to be controversial here (my team of lawyers at the ready)! The possible reason for such a high entry ticket summed up in two words - Audio Exotics
In Asia, they just don't accept low prices - you are not taken seriously until you've added a "0" or two to yr price, or multiplied it by a multiple of 5
I really do believe that if we were talking about the heyday of audio where Touraj would be pitching to the Uk mkt mainly, possibly Europe and USA, Asia etc not even a possibility, the price would be 50-60% less.
Of course I don't really know this as a fact, but this seems to be the way of things these days.
Now before the WBF Thought Police jumps on my neck accusing me of petty jealousy, I say good luck to Touraj, I've spent a bit of time in his company and i can attest he's a top engineer, and if he can really sell a handful of these at $35k to Asia, he deserves kudos.
I believe he may not be attentive to calls atm, because he's at Audio Exotics helping out w/their AE Super Show. Marketing uber expensive gear to Asia is a full time job.

TBone · Jun 24, 2015

ddk said:
Not dismissive Anthony the Xerxes was at $600 when introduced and now its $4k, that's not the high end market. The rules and expectations are very different for a $4k table and a $35k one, I'm trying to see how he got there in one leap. The LP12 was touted as high end by Linn and certain media but reality was different. Linn was upper mid at best. Both price wise and sonically high end was defined by others at the time, certainly not the Brits.

in my region, if memory serves, pretty certain a decked-out orig.xerxes was > than $600can, or I'd have owned one back then.:b And being from tor.can, we've long had many turntables / manufacturers, local and abroad, to discuss/hear, at any price level. I respect the LP12 for what it really was/is, and I'm very aware of how they're built and consequently the reason for $,$$$ updates, and I'm no linnee.

spiritofmusic · Jun 24, 2015

David, did you go to the preeminent London Linn dealer, Grahams Hifi in Islington, N1?
The single speaker demo was a religion, as was the demoing in order of progressively more complicated iterations of the LP12. A demo could last 3 hrs, going from Linn Basik to LP12, arms up to the Ekos, carts up to the Troika. And then when Trampolin suspension came in, more combinations. Then all the way from Kan spkrs to Sara to Isobarik/Isobarik active 6 pack.
And the infamous Linn/Naim wars, where Linn took concessions away from dealers who wanted to play both once Linn started to make their own amps, even 'though Naim was the amp of choice to begin when Linn didn't make their own. The relationship soured and never recovered.
Interestingly the 2015 spec LP12 w/arm/cart is around £15k v the Vertere at £20k, just the table. Initially the Xerxes was cheaper than the LP12.

TBone · Jun 24, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
Now before the WBF Thought Police jumps on my neck accusing me of petty jealousy, I say good luck to Touraj, I've spent a bit of time in his company and i can attest he's a top engineer, and if he can really sell a handful of these at $35k to Asia, he deserves kudos.

i didn't think that was going to happen, we all have different perspectives of hi-end based on our local area/culture.

TBone · Jun 24, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
David, did you go to the preeminent London Linn dealer, Grahams Hifi in Islington, N1?
The single speaker demo was a religion, as was the demoing in order of progressively more complicated iterations of the LP12. A demo could last 3 hrs, going from Linn Basik to LP12, arms up to the Ekos, carts up to the Troika. And then when Trampolin suspension came in, more combinations. Then all the way from Kan spkrs to Sara to Isobarik/Isobarik active 6 pack.
And the infamous Linn/Naim wars, where Linn took concessions away from dealers who wanted to play both once Linn started to make their own amps, even 'though Naim was the amp of choice to begin when Linn didn't make their own. The relationship soured and never recovered.
Interestingly the 2015 spec LP12 w/arm/cart is around £15k v the Vertere at £20k, just the table. Initially the Xerxes was cheaper than the LP12.

fully agree, linn "techs" used to drive me crazy. the entire "tune-dem" linn mantra drove me crazy ... but I still very much use my Ikemi.

ddk · Jun 24, 2015

TBone said:
in my region, if memory serves, pretty certain a decked-out orig.xerxes was > than $600can, or I'd have owned one back then.:b And being from tor.can, we've long had many turntables / manufacturers, local and abroad, to discuss/hear, at any price level. I respect the LP12 for what it really was/is, and I'm very aware of how they're built and consequently the reason for $,$$$ updates, and I'm no linnee.

The only thing I know from the Canadian market of the 70's and 80's was Oracle that cost more than twice the price of LP12/Ittok/Asak in the UK and the wonderful Tannoy GRFs and Autographs of the 70's. In those day there wasn't a global concept as there is today, every market had its nuances. The Xerxes was less than £350 UK pounds when introduced.

david

spiritofmusic · Jun 24, 2015

I'm as far from the Linn/Roksan now as you can get. Direct rim drive/magnetic isolation to feet and platter/non sprung suspension/air bearing linear tracking arm/Straingauge cart - and all at less than a third of the price of the top specced 2015 LP12 package. Other than checking the air supply to arm intermittently, abs no tweaking.
But my tt would never sell in Asia. Now if I can convince the designer to sell it at 5x plus the price (currently $5k), they would lap it up. I'm not being facetious, I really mean this.

TBone · Jun 24, 2015

david, not 100% certain, but I think I remember the orig.oracle came in just over the $lp12, and the linn wasn't the most expensive brit 'table here, nor the xerxes. the oracle really shook our world initially, it was so radically different to the norm.

ddk · Jun 24, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
David, did you go to the preeminent London Linn dealer, Grahams Hifi in Islington, N1?
The single speaker demo was a religion, as was the demoing in order of progressively more complicated iterations of the LP12. A demo could last 3 hrs, going from Linn Basik to LP12, arms up to the Ekos, carts up to the Troika. And then when Trampolin suspension came in, more combinations. Then all the way from Kan spkrs to Sara to Isobarik/Isobarik active 6 pack.
And the infamous Linn/Naim wars, where Linn took concessions away from dealers who wanted to play both once Linn started to make their own amps, even 'though Naim was the amp of choice to begin when Linn didn't make their own. The relationship soured and never recovered.
Interestingly the 2015 spec LP12 w/arm/cart is around £15k v the Vertere at £20k, just the table. Initially the Xerxes was cheaper than the LP12.

YES Grahams!!!! Lewin was my to go guy there. Grahams were my sane British built connection and Ricardo of Absolute Sound was my candy store for exotic and insanely priced imported audio. He was talking thousands for a single component when UK high end scene about an entire system costing hundreds!

Still have my LP12/Ittok/Asak, not looking for that anymore, specially for £15k!

david

TBone · Jun 24, 2015

>>The Xerxes was less than £350 UK pounds when introduced.<<

my mother is from Manchester, relatives used to send us pound$ and we'd need to convert it to our dollar to spend. IIRC, a 1p~$2 back then.

microstrip · Jun 24, 2015

spiritofmusic said:
DDK, that's true. You don't know how powerful the hold that the LP12 had on the UK tt market - it just cleaned up in the mid to late 70s/80s, until Roksan, and to some extent Pink Triangle, came along. (...)

In 1982 a friend and me visited Ricardo at 42 Parkside, Wimbledon to get a fabulous Oracle - unfortunately the turntable was for him, not for me! Around that time there were several alternatives for the Linn - the Pink Triangle, the Michel Gyrodeck that was more expensive than the Linn and later the Dunlop Systemdeck. I have owned them all, and later several Oracles ...

When Martin Colloms reviewed the Oracle in Hifi News, the issue included six full pages of Oracle advertisements - something unusual in the magazine. I attach two of them.

Later visits to Ricardo were unique moments. He his a connoisseur and sometimes had new and less known products hidden behind the curtains and would improvise a memorable listening session. I met him a month ago and he still keeps his passion and enthusiasm.

TBone · Jun 24, 2015

wow, so much advertising in one single issue, even our local scribes didn't include that many.

Vertere RG-1 Turntable

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

Well-Known Member

New Member

VIP/Donor

Attachments

New Member

Similar threads