Stillpoints and Magico
- Thread starter WDW
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If indeed Wolf made these comments, he is correct. For the most part anyway, including his rolling eyes.
Coupling is the only way to go, regardless of the component. Every component attracts unwanted energy (air-borne and internally-generated) much like a lightning rod and when one attempts to decouple (isolate) these components, that is exactly like installing a lightning rod without a ground wire or grounding spike. When you attempt to decouple in any way, shape, or form, you are in essence attempting to severe all mechanical conduits so the unwanted energy has no hope of escape or exit. That implies the unwanted energy must release itself and fully dissipate within. That should not be difficult to understand. But the question is, why would anybody want to do that?
But unlike a lightning rod that may receive an occasional strike of unwanted energy, our components are being continuously bombarded with unwanted energy, especially speakers. Talk about destructive? Think catastrophic.
Try that philosophy with the lightning rod on your house and see what that buys you the next time you encounter a lightning storm directly overhead.
But I disagree with Wolf's supposed implication that others cannot know more about his designs (or at least aspects of his designs) than he. Could I not take possession of a Ferrari F430 Spider and improve its performance somewhere somehow over the factory model? If I had the resources, knowledge, and inclination, I (or another) might be able to improve maybe 1 or even 10 areas of that F430 within 60 days or so.
You re right imo , since for example the S 5 is not the all assault magico , obviously there are budgetcuts somewhere in the design, however it is not all certain that the S 5 would benefit from othermore expensive footers.
The largest budget cut obviously would be LS systemsize
The largest budget cut obviously would be LS systemsize
Fundamentally, another improving on one's design remains possible whether it's the all out assault design model or the BestBuy discount-of-the-week model. But hopefully with an all-out-assault, balls-to-the-walls, pedal-to-the-metal design model there are fewer things to potentially improve. But the point being, nobody thinks of everything.
I'm quite certain there are other footers for which the Magico's or any other speaker could truly benefit. But the "footer" must include superior design, materials, methodologies, and executions. For reasons stated above, anything of a "decoupling" nature is an inferior methodology and a grossly inferior one at that.
Wolf comment was in regards to this particular issue, although I think he was also talking about a larger dichotomy which was clearly illustrated in this thread. We, audiophiles (even “industry experts”), do not always follow reason, not even simple one.
I did not hear Wolf claiming that there are no better ways to couple his speakers, he just talked about the principals involved in doing so. Regardless, I would think that he would have better credentials then most bystanders (who only credentials are their “ears”) to talk about these things, as they pertain to his designs.
Yes, I realize Wolf's comments may well have been localized to this particular issue, but it really shouldn't matter if Wolf was talking specifically or generally because he's still dealing with the attitude of others. Hence, his rolling eyes. You say you did not hear Wolf claim there are no better ways to couple his speakers, yet didn't you just say he was talking about this specific issue and rolling his eyes?
And yes, we would certainly hope that Wolf would have better credentials that most, but that's not to say somebody more knowledgeable can come along to improve what somebody has accomplished. Even if that somebody's only credentials are their "ears". After all, we're talking about loudspeakers, right? If ears are not applicable here, then where?
The specific issue is Stillpoints under Magico products, see OP.
Apparently nowhere but our own minds. As you can see, some people like SP under their speakers (even though it makes no sense but to their “ears” it sounds better) and some don’t like it.
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I am sure Alon Wolf's eyes will kept rolled for hours after reading this post! 
Last night I helped my friend to install Stillpoints Ultra 5 onto his Magico Project M :
The improvement is very very obvious and in all aspects!
Soundstage expanded ; bass increased in quantity and quality ; resolution improved ; images solidified yet with more natural harmonics & decay ...
I always say : Listening is Believing.
Last night I helped my friend to install Stillpoints Ultra 5 onto his Magico Project M :
The improvement is very very obvious and in all aspects!
Soundstage expanded ; bass increased in quantity and quality ; resolution improved ; images solidified yet with more natural harmonics & decay ...
I always say : Listening is Believing.
I am sure Alon Wolf's eyes will kept rolled for hours after reading this post!
Last night I helped my friend to install Stillpoints Ultra 5 onto his Magico Project M :
View attachment 21480
View attachment 21481
The improvement is very very obvious and in all aspects!
Soundstage expanded ; bass increased in quantity and quality ; resolution improved ; images solidified yet with more natural harmonics & decay ...
I always say : Listening is Believing.
OMG what a shame. First of all, when you increase the distance between the speaker and the floor you will get less bass. You will smear the mid bass by making the speaker wobbly. Unless you adjust listening height you will be off axis from the tweeter.
Ian...I think you are making generalizations based on your room. You have no idea of his room nor setup...smearing, lack of bass because the are two inches taller ? It all depends on his seating position, how far from the wall the speakers are ect. Have you even tried them under your m projects ? They must be incredibly light speakers if they wobble...but then again this is all speculation unless you have tried them yourself.
Hi Ian,
You are wrong!
The bass increased both in quantity and articulation/resolution after using the Ultra5. I mentioned this specifically in my post earlier.
The Project M became wobbly? You must be joking. They are rock-stable.
I am sure Alon Wolf's eyes will kept rolled for hours after reading this post!
Last night I helped my friend to install Stillpoints Ultra 5 onto his Magico Project M :
The improvement is very very obvious and in all aspects!
Soundstage expanded ; bass increased in quantity and quality ; resolution improved ; images solidified yet with more natural harmonics & decay ...
I always say : Listening is Believing.
Yes, based on the Ultra 5's materials you should hear some performance gains. But it would be interesting to ask Stillpoints why they consider the Ultra 5's to be a damping device rather than an inferior coupling device just to see what they say. It would also be interesting to ask them why they prefer the damping methodology over the coupling one and what it is they're really trying to accomplish.
I'm unable to find any text or a close up pic of the Project M's original footers but from a distance I can see where the Stillpoints might be superior. From what little I can tell, Wolf probably should not have rolled his eyes. In fact, if most Project M owners employing Stilpoint Utra 5's are providing positive feedback, he should be embarrassed.
My friend and I did careful comparison between the original Project M spike/plate and the Stillpoints Ultra5 by listening to different kinds of music, both via CAS and the Vivaldi SACD system.
Each Project M is 400lbs. We have to use a lifting jack for installing the diff footers.
The Project M was delivered with wheels installed :
This is to facilitate placement but the sound is woolly.
After some burn-in and preliminary placement, the original spike+plates are installed :
And last night, we installed the Ultra5 and did a detailed comparison against the original spike+plate.
Each Project M is 400lbs. We have to use a lifting jack for installing the diff footers.
The Project M was delivered with wheels installed :
This is to facilitate placement but the sound is woolly.
After some burn-in and preliminary placement, the original spike+plates are installed :
And last night, we installed the Ultra5 and did a detailed comparison against the original spike+plate.
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Hi stehno,
Your guess is spot on!
Have you seen the original plates of Project M?
They are the ones came with my S5. Small and thin steel plates. Please see the photo below.
Why does Alon Wolf think that they can be used both in S5 and Project M and produce the same effect? haha
Your guess is spot on!
Have you seen the original plates of Project M?
They are the ones came with my S5. Small and thin steel plates. Please see the photo below.
Why does Alon Wolf think that they can be used both in S5 and Project M and produce the same effect? haha
Very interesting. Of course, an objectivist would object because the evaluation was not a DBT and suggest a bias based on the fact that the owner already uses Ultra 5s under his Pass amps. I tend to do my evaluations sighted, so I can not object to your observations. Congratulations and I'm glad you have found a way to improve the performance of those incredible speakers.
Great combination of Magico and Pass. This system must sound great.
Great combination of Magico and Pass. This system must sound great.
Thanks PeterA!
The character of Passlabs Xs150 is an excellent match with Project M.
However and IMHO, the more powerful Xs300 should be an even better partner.
By plates do you mean disc or puck-shaped steel objects? Without seeing how they are fasted, what lays between them and speaker base, etc, it's not wise for me to comment. I have a sneaking suspicion that Wolf's footer design may not be too dissimilar from the Ultra 5's. If I assume identical designs between Wolf's discs and the Ultra's I would lean toward Wolf's smaller discs for the mere reason that the smaller footer generates a greater pounds per square inch force of the speaker against the floor and by that one fact alone would make for a more superior mechanical conduit between the speaker and floor, thus potentially allowing more mechanical energy to escape before it can induces its sonic harm by dissipating within the speaker.
I'm not saying one is better or worse than the other because I can't see everything about them, but the fact that others seem to articulate similar positive responses, I'd venture at the very least Stillpoints is using superior materials to Wolfs.
As for your last point about Wolf using the same system in one speaker model and another and expecting the same results, well the bigger issue is that even though the industry has its experts in a given field e.g. speaker design, amp design, etc. those experts often times think they are experts in other fields outside of their primary expertise, e.g. proper AC filtering / line conditioning, proper vibration control, etc. when in fact those and other areas are clearly outside their realm.
Hi Stehno,
S5, Q3 & Q5 are using similar screw-in steel spikes as their footers. Spikes of Project M are bigger in size.
However, they are just simple steel spikes and completely diff from sophisticated footers such as Stillpoints, Nordost Sort Fut or Finite Elemente's.
Those small steel plates/discs shown in my photos are included in the package. They are to be put between the spikes and the floor.
Do they have a specific acoustic function?
Or are they, as Ian said, just floor-savers?
I don't know the answer.
S5/Q3/Q5/Project M are so different yet their spikes & "floor-saver plates" are similar/identical.
Is this a deliberate design? haha
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