Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

Ron Resnick · Sep 24, 2017

The Lamm is my second favorite phono stage.

But I love the Io: I like the design's 100% focus on LP playback; I like Jim White's size-no-object (3 big boxes) extreme approach; and, most of all, I like the sound.

LL21 · Sep 24, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
The Lamm is my second favorite phono stage.

But I love the Io: I like the design's 100% focus on LP playback; I like Jim White's size-no-object (3 big boxes) extreme approach; and most of all I like the sound.

Hey Ron,

Just noticed your American Sound AS-2000 on order...congrats! Not sure when you updated this, particularly as I'm not an analog guy as you know. But congrats nevertheless...the system is definitely starting to take shape, and it's looking like a real heavy weight champ...

Are you sticking with the VTL 750s, or are you expecting to consider an upgrade after the Gryphons go in?

bonzo75 · Sep 24, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
The Lamm is my second favorite phono stage.

But I love the Io: I like the design's 100% focus on LP playback; I like Jim White's size-no-object (3 big boxes) extreme approach; and most of all I like the sound.

You need to roll the tubes to quieten it and Mook it like Greg baron has. Write to him.

Ron Resnick · Sep 25, 2017

LL21 said:
Hey Ron,

Just noticed your American Sound AS-2000 on order...congrats! Not sure when you updated this, particularly as I'm not an analog guy as you know. But congrats nevertheless...the system is definitely starting to take shape, and it's looking like a real heavy weight champ... Are you sticking with the VTL MB-750s, or are you expecting to consider an upgrade after the Gryphons go in?

Thank you, Lloyd! I updated it a couple of weeks ago when David disclosed the American Sound AS-2000 project in reply to a question from Peter A.

I am sticking with the VTL 750s for the ribbon panels. There are a lot of choices in high power, push-pull tube amplifiers, but I do not feel the need to consider other amplifiers with the same basic topology.

However, I would be very curious, if not fascinated, someday to hear how the NAT Magma New SE (170 watt SET) sounds on the ribbon panels.

Ron Resnick · Sep 25, 2017

bonzo75 said:
You need to roll the tubes to quieten it and Mook it like Greg baron has. Write to him.

I understand. But I think Jim is the place to start on this question. Jim agrees that changing the tubes changes the sound.

I do not want to start changing tubes, so I want to see how the Io, with stock tubes, would handle such low output.

I intend to put the Io on a Herzan TS-140. How does Mooking underneath the Io change the sound of the Io?

bonzo75 · Sep 25, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
I understand. But I think Jim is the place to start on this question. Jim agrees that changing the tubes changes the sound.

I do not want to start changing tubes, so I want to see how the Io, with stock tubes, would handle such low output.

I intend to put the Io on a Herzan TS-140. How does Mooking underneath the Io change the sound of the Io?

The sound with tube rolling it will change it for the positive. Lower noise floor, and more of everything. The tubes you choose will have their own signatures, some more warmth, some more neutrality. A lot of posts on the gon regarding tube rolling and Greg will also tell you a lot. Mooking will give you more soundstage, bloom, tone, decay, width, depth, naturalness, etc etc. He has mooked all his three boxes as will Bill at some stage. The reason I did not buy the IO I put over to Bill, is that though the cost of the initial purchase was low, there is no way would I have not spent a significant amount on tube rolling and mooking, which I did not want to. I really don't see the point of not maximizing it once you own it, and it will go up by multiples from the stock IO performance. Since you are skeptical of the mooks, just visit Greg and take them out and put them back in. Will take you 5 mins to be convinced.

Ron Resnick · Sep 25, 2017

Well then it is Mooking or Herzan. I cannot have Mooks between the Io and the Herzan.

As much audiophilia nervousa as I have, it is a lot less than many in this hobby have. I go by my ears (subjective), I add a small dose of technical understanding (objective), I tweak a bit to taste and I am done. For me this hobby is not a never-ending quest to hit a moving target of perfection.

I am hatching a system I have very good reason to believe I will love. I have to select cables (not fun for me), I will spend a lot of time labouring leisurely on precise speaker positioning and listening chair location, I maybe will add a Stacore Basic under each VTL (because it makes sense since the amps will be 3 feet from 1000 watts of Gryphon Class A powered woofer towers), I will play with the cartridge loading on the Io, and I am done.

From then on my friends on WBF can come to the system, listen, and fiddle to their hearts' content. All fiddlers are welcome!

Ron Resnick · Sep 25, 2017

The American Sound turntable will be more dynamic, detailed and articulate -- more analytical -- than I am used to with my VPI TNT Mk. IV. I do not want to toggle other component decisions in that same sonic direction.

bonzo75 · Sep 25, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
Well then it is Mooking or Herzan. I cannot have Mooks between the Io and the Herzan.

As much audiophilia nervousa as I have, it is a lot less than many in this hobby have. I go by my ears (subjective), I add a small dose of technical understanding (objective), I tweak a bit to taste and I am done. For me this hobby is not a never-ending quest to hit a moving target of perfection.

I am hatching a system I have very good reason to believe I will love. I have to select cables (not fun for me), I will spend a lot of time labouring leisurely on precise speaker positioning and listening chair location, I maybe will add a Stacore Basic under each VTL (because it makes sense since the amps will be 3 feet from 1000 watts of Gryphon Class A powered woofer towers), I will play with the cartridge loading on the Io, and I am done.

From then on my friends on WBF can come to the system, listen, and fiddle to their hearts' content. All fiddlers are welcome!

Well you know I won't visit you unless you let me put in the mooks under your IO and take them out again

- Shakti has experience with mooks, TS 140, and Taiko active, and also had the Aesthetix though don't think he tried all those under it, but you can PM him

hi5harry · Sep 25, 2017

Another huge vote for Mooks under your phono stage. Use Giants if you can find them. I use Stein Super Naturals under my power supplies. I'm not saying they are near the same as Mooks, but their sonic signature gets along well with Mooks.

Zero000 · Sep 25, 2017

By all means live with the stock tubes in the Io for a while, but I am also of the opinion that a decent set of tubes will reap fairly worthwhile benefits, far more so than Ked's Mooks. So when you get bored and fancy a bot of change, maybe go for it, despite the inclination not to.

However, the Mook stands (whatever they are called) are more effective than the mpingos. So at least let him try...

Especially if you find the Io is in any way microphonic.

DaveyF · Sep 25, 2017

Ron Resnick said:
I understand. But I think Jim is the place to start on this question. Jim agrees that changing the tubes changes the sound.

I do not want to start changing tubes, so I want to see how the Io, with stock tubes, would handle such low output.

I intend to put the Io on a Herzan TS-140. How does Mooking underneath the Io change the sound of the Io?

Ron, tube rolling will not solve an incompatibility between your phono stage and your cartridge. If your cartridge has too low an output, the solution lies in replacing the cartridge with one that has enough output--or adding a SUT to your system.
IME, getting the right cartridge output to match your phono stage in the first place is paramount. This is the reason that I have not sprung for a ZYX. I know that the output is going to be questionable at best with my tube phono stage and the
result will most likely be sub-par. Much better to get a cartridge that in no way stresses the phono stage.
As to ultimately going with tube rolling, like others have said, it is the way to go. Expensive, but IMO well worth it.

Steve Williams · Sep 25, 2017

DaveyF said:
Ron, tube rolling will not solve an incompatibility between your phono stage and your cartridge. If your cartridge has too low an output, the solution lies in replacing the cartridge with one that has enough output--or adding a SUT to your system.
IME, getting the right cartridge output to match your phono stage in the first place is paramount. This is the reason that I have not sprung for a ZYX. I know that the output is going to be questionable at best with my tube phono stage and the
result will most likely be sub-par. Much better to get a cartridge that in no way stresses the phono stage.
As to ultimately going with tube rolling, like others have said, it is the way to go. Expensive, but IMO well worth it.

you can always get a different phono stage

DaveyF · Sep 25, 2017

Steve Williams said:
you can always get a different phono stage

Yes, but that becomes another problem, IME. Phono stages are either going to float your boat, or they are not. When you get lucky and find the one that works great ( to your ears), then best to stick with it. I have used both ss phono stages, SUT's and tube phono stages.
Personally, I much prefer a tube phono stage than any SUT or ss that i have ever heard. So, if Ron likes his tube phono stage and what it does, then to change that and go for a flea output cartridge that will happen to work with his new phono stage ( most likely ss, or SUT) makes little sense, IMHO. YMMV.

Steve Williams · Sep 25, 2017

Mine is a tube phono stage with 2 SUT's. One for low output and another for high output cartridges

DaveyF · Sep 25, 2017

Steve Williams said:
Mine is a tube phono stage with 2 SUT's. One for low output and another for high output cartridges

I know that. I'm not sure why you would want, or use, an SUT for a high output cartridge???
Can you bypass the SUT's and run the cartridge directly into the phono stage? If so, would be an interesting thing to do...and report back.
Although with your flea output cartridges, I doubt that the SQ would be an improvement bypassing the SUT's. With a higher output cartridge, I think you would get a smile on your face.

KeithR · Sep 25, 2017

Ron, I think an Air Tight cartridge might solve your compatibility issue. (and knowing your sonic preferences, you will love its sound)

PeterA · Sep 25, 2017

KeithR said:
Ron, I think an Air Tight cartridge might solve your compatibility issue. (and knowing your sonic preferences, you will love its sound)

Agreed. I have quietly encouraged Ron to consider either the Supreme or Opus. Each has around 0.40 - 0.45 mV output. The MySonic Lab has around 0.5.

Ron Resnick · Sep 26, 2017

bonzo75 said:
Well you know I won't visit you unless you let me put in the mooks under your IO and take them out again - Shakti has experience with mooks, TS 140, and Taiko active, and also had the Aesthetix though don't think he tried all those under it, but you can PM him

You are welcome to experiment with Mooks under the Io control unit.

Ron Resnick · Sep 26, 2017

hi5harry said:
Another huge vote for Mooks under your phono stage. Use Giants if you can find them. I use Stein Super Naturals under my power supplies. I'm not saying they are near the same as Mooks, but their sonic signature gets along well with Mooks.

Active isolation (Herzan TS-140) under an all-tube phono stage makes all the sense in the world to me. One cannot place anything compliant between the component and the Herzan platform. Aren't Mooks slightly compliant (made out of "woo-woo" wood)?

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